One Church - One City - Biblical?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

The Lord Jesus said that if two or more gather in His name, He will be there among us. But you say, "That's not the church". So the presence of the Spirit of Christ is insufficient?

aron,

Well you don't understand what the Lord Jesus meant. The verse does not say that 2 or 3 gathered is a church. It is talking about 2 or 3 witnesses as per 2 Cor 13:1 "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

The context is dealing with a sinning brother and prayers of agreement, and we can see that it says if a person does not listen to the two or three, then tell it to the church (compare verse 16 and verse 17). So clearly, the church is bigger than just the two or three, and the church is not the two or three. Reading from verse 15 gives the right context, and for convenience, many bible versions have titled this section "dealing with a sinning brother".

Dealing with a Sinning Brother (MKJV) Matthew 18:15-20
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

The local church is a bigger city-wide entity, with a leadership (elders were appointed in every church) and with an administration and authority (Matthew 18:17). So it's not right to say two or three gathered are "the church".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

aron,

The verse does not say that 2 or 3 gathered is a church.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whenever two or three of you are gathered in my name, I am there in your midst."

But you say this is insufficient, and propose improvements, necessary ones.

I remember distinctly that the Ascended Master in Anaheim felt we weren't vital enough, and sent out trainers. They had us come up front and thrust out our two arms as we sang, "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly", and as we waved them up and down. Such was the spirit then motivating the assembly.

But it's the church, right?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whenever two or three of you are gathered in my name, I am there in your midst."

But you say this is insufficient, and propose improvements, necessary ones.

I remember distinctly that the Ascended Master in Anaheim felt we weren't vital enough, and sent out trainers. They had us come up front and thrust out our two arms as we sang, "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly", and as we waved them up and down. Such was the spirit then motivating the assembly.

But it's the church, right?

If two or three are the church as you say, then how do you explain "the church" in verse 17 here?:

Matthew 18: 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Matthew 18:17 And if he refuses to hear them (the two or three, emphasis mine), tell it to the church.

Obviously, the two or three in verse 16 is not the same as the church in verse 17.

It is saying, in verse 15, talk to your brother first, then in verse 16, take one or two with you (that is the two or three), and then in verse 17, tell it to "the church". Obviously two or three brothers with you cannot be "the church". Telling it to the church means tell it to the elders of the church. The church is not just two or three, it is bigger than that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whenever two or three of you are gathered in my name, I am there in your midst."

But you say this is insufficient, and propose improvements, necessary ones.

I remember distinctly that the Ascended Master in Anaheim felt we weren't vital enough, and sent out trainers. They had us come up front and thrust out our two arms as we sang, "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly", and as we waved them up and down. Such was the spirit then motivating the assembly.

But it's the church, right?

It's very safe to say, in the context of those scripture, that "tell it to the church" is to tell it to the elders, not to tell it to the whole city of believers. And they most probably were the elders in the assembly the two parties met with.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

aron,

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.".

It says, "concerning anything", not "concerning a sinning brother". Why be so narrow, and restrictive in interpretation? Because your preferred reading forces it?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

It says, "concerning anything", not "concerning a sinning brother". Why be so narrow, and restrictive in interpretation? Because your preferred reading forces it?

Because I've bothered to look up the verses and the context. "concerning anything" is a general statement and also includes the context of the previous verses about a sinning brother (presumably to pray and agree about what action should be taken). Still doesn't prove that two or three can be a church. You'd have to explain why it says we should "tell the church" in verse 17. By your reckoning, just having two or three with you should be enough (verse 16).

I agree that Jesus is in the midst of two or three, but that doesn't make those two or three a church, anymore than the Lord's presence with us individually makes us a church.

Jesus sent his disciples out two by two:

Mark 6:7 And he called his twelve disciples together and began sending them out two by two, giving them authority to cast out evil spirits.

To say that two or three can be a church, is to say that the 12 disciples were in fact 6 churches which doesn't make sense.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree that Jesus is in the midst of two or three, but that doesn't make those two or three a church, anymore than the Lord's presence with us individually makes us a church.

According to Witness Lee's exposition on Ephesians, this book by Paul defines the church as being 7 things:

1. The Body of Christ

2. The New Man

3. The Kingdom

4. The Household of God

5. The Dwelling Place of God

6. The Bride of Christ

7. The Warrior

So then let us consider these 7

1. If two are three are gathering together in the Lord's name, and He is in their midst, they are genuine believers, they are surely the Body of Christ. Perhaps they are merely a fingertip, but we would all agree that a fingertip is part of our body.

2. According to WL the difference between the Body and the New Man is that the New Man needs both life and the person of Jesus Christ. But, if Jesus is in their midst, then surely they have the person of Jesus Christ.

3. The kingdom requires the King. Every member is a citizen with both rights and responsibilities. There is absolutely no reason why these two or three would not be exercising their rights, carrying out their responsibilities, and be in fellowship with the king.

4. Household refers to the "life and enjoyment", the "family life" of the church. No one can say that two or three is insufficient to have this type of experience. As long as Jesus is in the midst they can surely be the household of God.

5. The dwelling place of God -- clearly Jesus word that He would be in their midst is evidence that they can be the dwelling place of God.

6. The Bride of Christ, like the Bride of Adam given because it was not good for Adam to be alone. If two or three are meeting with the Lord in the midst then they are clearly not alone and there is no reason to say that this cannot be the Bride of Christ.

7. The Warrior -- 1 will chase a thousand, two ten thousand, and who knows how many three will chase. Combine these with the Lord Jesus. Surely they can be a warrior.

Let's also talk about hypocrisy. I once met with a "church" in the LRC that had 3 members (1 family and me, they did have very small children, too young to be believers). We met every Sunday for our worship service. We were encouraged to do this and discouraged from looking for a local Christian meeting. This was in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1986-1987.

Imagine the hypocrisy of teaching that two or three cannot be a church until of course the alternative is having your members meet with other Christians, then of course it can be.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to Witness Lee's exposition on Ephesians, this book by Paul defines the church as being 7 things:

1. The Body of Christ

2. The New Man

3. The Kingdom

4. The Household of God

5. The Dwelling Place of God

6. The Bride of Christ

7. The Warrior

So then let us consider these 7

1. If two are three are gathering together in the Lord's name, and He is in their midst, they are genuine believers, they are surely the Body of Christ. Perhaps they are merely a fingertip, but we would all agree that a fingertip is part of our body.

2. According to WL the difference between the Body and the New Man is that the New Man needs both life and the person of Jesus Christ. But, if Jesus is in their midst, then surely they have the person of Jesus Christ.

3. The kingdom requires the King. Every member is a citizen with both rights and responsibilities. There is absolutely no reason why these two or three would not be exercising their rights, carrying out their responsibilities, and be in fellowship with the king.

4. Household refers to the "life and enjoyment", the "family life" of the church. No one can say that two or three is insufficient to have this type of experience. As long as Jesus is in the midst they can surely be the household of God.

5. The dwelling place of God -- clearly Jesus word that He would be in their midst is evidence that they can be the dwelling place of God.

6. The Bride of Christ, like the Bride of Adam given because it was not good for Adam to be alone. If two or three are meeting with the Lord in the midst then they are clearly not alone and there is no reason to say that this cannot be the Bride of Christ.

7. The Warrior -- 1 will chase a thousand, two ten thousand, and who knows how many three will chase. Combine these with the Lord Jesus. Surely they can be a warrior.

Let's also talk about hypocrisy. I once met with a "church" in the LRC that had 3 members (1 family and me, they did have very small children, too young to be believers). We met every Sunday for our worship service. We were encouraged to do this and discouraged from looking for a local Christian meeting. This was in Hanover, New Hampshire, in 1986-1987.

Imagine the hypocrisy of teaching that two or three cannot be a church until of course the alternative is having your members meet with other Christians, then of course it can be.

I can claim those 7 things of myself as an individual, but I am not a church or the church. I think there is something missing and that is the city boundary of locality.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I can claim those 7 things of myself as an individual, but I am not a church or the church. I think there is something missing and that is the city boundary of locality.

Great, why don't you clear this up for us. Exactly how many believers does it take to be a church? Also it is understood that these two or three meeting together are doing it in a locality, so a city boundary is included in this definition. For example, when I met with that family in Hanover we were within the city boundary of Hanover. So did the three of us constitute the church in Hanover, NH?

Can 4? How about 10? How about 25? What exactly is the minimum acceptable number to be a church?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Great, why don't you clear this up for us. Exactly how many believers does it take to be a church? Also it is understood that these two or three meeting together are doing it in a locality, so a city boundary is included in this definition. For example, when I met with that family in Hanover we were within the city boundary of Hanover. So did the three of us constitute the church in Hanover, NH?

Can 4? How about 10? How about 25? What exactly is the minimum acceptable number to be a church?

It takes all the believers in the city to be a church I think. If you met on the ground of locality within the city boundary I think you were the genuine church in Hanover, but all believers in the city should fellowship with you too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Let's also talk about hypocrisy. I once met with a "church" in the LRC that had 3 members

Imagine the hypocrisy of teaching that two or three cannot be a church until of course the alternative is having your members meet with other Christians, then of course it can be.

The FIRST table meeting in the Recovery was W. Nee and a few sisters who broke bread.

Heard that story numerous times.

Does Evangelical now tell us that was NOT a church meeting?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The FIRST table meeting in the Recovery was W. Nee and a few sisters who broke bread.

Heard that story numerous times.

Does Evangelical now tell us that was NOT a church meeting?

The context is found in #122, Koinonia said every time we gather, two or three, that we are a church or the church.

Doesn't make sense because, when 10 families drive to church on a Sunday morning and pray in the car, they are not 10 churches. When Christ sent out his disciples two by two, he did not send out 6 churches, etc.