One Church - One City - Biblical?

Koinonia · 10-13-2016, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You and a sister praying together are in the one church, but you can't claim to be "the church" or "a church". Those words would be exclusive to every other believer in your city. I am not saying that you and a sister praying are not part of Christ's church, I am saying that you and a sister praying together is not "a church" or "the church".

But that is exactly what the LC does. You get certain few people together who all wish to behave in a certain way, and then you call that "the church."

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

But that is exactly what the LC does. You get certain few people together who all wish to behave in a certain way, and then you call that "the church."

By behave in a certain way, do you mean singing hymns, praying and remembering the Lord with the Lord's table as He instructed? And each local church is different really in how it does things. Some have music, some don't, some divide into groups for the prophesying meeting, others remain in one big group, etc.

Koinonia · 10-13-2016, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By behave in a certain way, do you mean singing hymns, praying and remembering the Lord with the Lord's table as He instructed?

No, I mean like meeting at 10AM, brothers in the front row, sisters in the second row, to sing from the LSM hymnal--"Praise of the Lord," then "Remembrance of the Lord," and then "Worship of the Father"--before the 5-minute "opening word" delivered on the LSM outline, followed by the 2-minute "prophecies" on the Witness Lee excerpts, finished with the 5-minute "closing word."

If you really believed that all that is required for a "local church" is singing, praying, and remembering the Lord--on the ground of locality, then you would be perfectly happy in a "brethren" assembly.

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

No, I mean like meeting at 10AM, brothers in the front row, sisters in the second row, to sing from the LSM hymnal--"Praise of the Lord," then "Remembrance of the Lord," and then "Worship of the Father"--before the 5-minute "opening word" delivered on the LSM outline, followed by the 2-minute "prophecies" on the Witness Lee excerpts, finished with the 5-minute "closing word."

If you really believed that all that is required for a "local church" is singing, praying, and remembering the Lord--on the ground of locality, then you would be perfectly happy in a "brethren" assembly.

We aren't the church because we do these things in a certain way but because we meet to fellowship with and remember the Lord. These things have evolved over the years in what we do and things change. Sometimes we don't have the prophesying meeting because of other matters, sometimes it becomes a prayer meeting instead. Sometimes the meeting starts at 9.45 am and other times starts at 10.20 am. For example. But the things we do don't make us the church, it's who we are.

Koinonia · 10-13-2016, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We aren't the church because we do these things in a certain way but because we meet to fellowship with and remember the Lord. These things have evolved over the years in what we do and things change. Sometimes we don't have the prophesying meeting because of other matters, sometimes it becomes a prayer meeting instead. Sometimes the meeting starts at 9.45 am and other times starts at 10.20 am. For example.

Who is "we"?

As I said, if that was what you actually believed, then you would be perfectly happy in a "brethren" assembly.

Answer me this--Ohio mentioned places like Columbus or Toronto that have more than one group meeting on the "ground of locality." How do you distinguish which is legitimate?

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Who is "we"?

As I said, if that was what you actually believed, then you would be perfectly happy in a "brethren" assembly.

Answer me this--Ohio mentioned places like Columbus or Toronto that have more than one group meeting on the "ground of locality." How do you distinguish which is legitimate?

Not really, brethren do not hold to one church per city.

I am not familiar with the church in these cities but having three local churches in one locality without fellowship with or recognition of each other would be a divided local church to me.

Ohio · 10-13-2016, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Not really, brethren do not hold to one church per city.

I am not familiar with the church in these cities but having three local churches in one locality without fellowship with or recognition of each other would be a divided local church to me.

But it was LSM's own operatives who divided the church. Firstly, by encouraging the locals to disrupt all the meetings, and finally by assisting the locals to file lawsuits. They did this in all GLA churches, the worst being Columbus, Mansfield, and Toronto.

Sorry, Evangelical, but the more you post, the more you are convicted by your own words.

Ohio · 10-13-2016, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We aren't the church because we do these things in a certain way but because we meet to fellowship with and remember the Lord. These things have evolved over the years in what we do and things change. Sometimes we don't have the prophesying meeting because of other matters, sometimes it becomes a prayer meeting instead. Sometimes the meeting starts at 9.45 am and other times starts at 10.20 am. For example. But the things we do don't make us the church, it's who we are.

I love that last line. It explains it all. The basic message is simple: You and only you are the true church. Nobody else is the church.

You can do anything you like, but it's still OK, cause you are the church.

Other congregations are not the church, no matter what they do.

That, my dear friend, is a recipe for corruption. It's no wonder that Lee's subordinates began proclaiming, "even if Lee is wrong, he's still right."

Do you have any idea how much unrighteousness Witness Lee & Sons Ministry LLC has gotten away with based on the dissemination of that thought.

ZNPaaneah · 10-13-2016, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I love that last line. It explains it all. The basic message is simple: You and only you are the true church. Nobody else is the church.

You can do anything you like, but it's still OK, cause you are the church.

Other congregations are not the church, no matter what they do.

That, my dear friend, is a recipe for corruption. It's no wonder that Lee's subordinates began proclaiming, "even if Lee is wrong, he's still right."

Do you have any idea how much unrighteousness Witness Lee & Sons Ministry LLC has gotten away with based on the dissemination of that thought.

I am pretty sure that it is who Jesus is that makes us the church. Receiving him is enough for salvation, two or three gathering together into His name is enough to be a "gathering of the called out ones" hence His church.

Of all the absurd and poorly supported teachings of Witness Lee I always thought this dismissal of the 2 or 3 can't be a church was the worst and most absurd and most hypocritical.

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am pretty sure that it is who Jesus is that makes us the church. Receiving him is enough for salvation, two or three gathering together into His name is enough to be a "gathering of the called out ones" hence His church.

Of all the absurd and poorly supported teachings of Witness Lee I always thought this dismissal of the 2 or 3 can't be a church was the worst and most absurd and most hypocritical.

I think I found a picture of the church:

http://www.leftlion.co.uk/articles.c...eteers/id/1539

Evangelical · 10-13-2016, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I love that last line. It explains it all. The basic message is simple: You and only you are the true church. Nobody else is the church.

You can do anything you like, but it's still OK, cause you are the church.

Other congregations are not the church, no matter what they do.

That, my dear friend, is a recipe for corruption. It's no wonder that Lee's subordinates began proclaiming, "even if Lee is wrong, he's still right."

Do you have any idea how much unrighteousness Witness Lee & Sons Ministry LLC has gotten away with based on the dissemination of that thought.

Do you believe the Roman Catholic is "the church"? Someone has to be the church. If you are protestant probably you don't believe the Catholic are the church. So you are the same as us, you choose who is the church and who is not. But we have the biblical support of one city one church.

Ohio · 10-13-2016, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you believe the Roman Catholic is "the church"? Someone has to be the church. If you are protestant probably you don't believe the Catholic are the church. So you are the same as us, you choose who is the church and who is not. But we have the biblical support of one city one church.

If Thyatira is a church lampstand in Revelations 3, then so is the Catholic church I grew up in.

ZNPaaneah · 10-13-2016, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you believe the Roman Catholic is "the church"? Someone has to be the church. If you are protestant probably you don't believe the Catholic are the church. So you are the same as us, you choose who is the church and who is not. But we have the biblical support of one city one church.

I believe that any gathering of the called out ones into the name of Jesus is an ekklesia, or church.

I believe the teaching that 2 or 3 can have the presence of God but cannot have the Lord's table and therefore is not a church is total and complete BS. There is no biblical basis for that and logically it is absurd.

I think the idea that the gathering has to refer to themselves as a "church" is novel, probably unique to you, and is total and complete BS. What they have to do is refer to the name of Jesus.

I think any precondition about the name of the gathering is the first step towards a denomination. That is a heresy. It doesn't become damnable until it is exclusive and condemns others.

I think that the church, the body, the new man, the warrior, the kingdom, etc. are all very important. But not in the way that Witness Lee teaches. His approach is to make the fellowship completely dependent and controlled by him. His only real requirement, in practice, is that he appointed the elders and if they don't comply with headquarters he will remove the elders. I also feel that Witness Lee has been completely hypocritical on this point 2 or 3, making exceptions to his rule when it pleases him. I met with a "Lord's Recovery Church" that had 3 members. I met with another one that had less than 20, maybe even 10.

Also, the teaching is absurd because there is no teaching as to how many you need to be a church. If 3 are not enough to have a Lord's table how about 4, 5, or 6? If six is enough, why does that sixth person make it legitimate?

As to the Catholic church. I think there are some genuine believers that are "Catholic" and that when they gather together it is an ekklesia. Did you ever see "The Mission"? The movie reveals all that is bad about the Catholic church and also all that is good.

Exodus16 · 10-13-2016, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you believe the Roman Catholic is "the church"? Someone has to be the church. If you are protestant probably you don't believe the Catholic are the church. So you are the same as us, you choose who is the church and who is not. But we have the biblical support of one city one church.

I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church or any Protestant church nor the Local Church denomination is "the church"
The church is not about doctrines and teaching but people.
I can disagree with a brother/sister and still meet together with them.
You can claim the Biblical support of one city one church ; but it is unsubstantiated. The brothers from the Lc do not fellowship, pray or coordinate with anyone who doesn't follow their prescribed doctrines/methods and are more divisive than any denomination.
Do you pray with your Eatern Orthodox neighbor, or your Presbyterian neighbor?
whatever doctrine a person clings to be it speaking in tongues, ground of locality or full immersion baptism doesn't divide them from Christ. What divides the body is refusing to accept those who don't agree with you.

Ohio · 10-13-2016, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

No, I mean like meeting at 10AM, brothers in the front row, sisters in the second row, to sing from the LSM hymnal--"Praise of the Lord," then "Remembrance of the Lord," and then "Worship of the Father"--before the 5-minute "opening word" delivered on the LSM outline, followed by the 2-minute "prophecies" on the Witness Lee excerpts, finished with the 5-minute "closing word."

If you really believed that all that is required for a "local church" is singing, praying, and remembering the Lord--on the ground of locality, then you would be perfectly happy in a "brethren" assembly.

And they tell us when to stand up, kneel, and then sit down.

Sounds like the Catholic Church I grew up in.