Teaching on Calling on the Name of the Lord

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Paul taught that 2-3 should speak (1 Cor 14:29), ...

Hi all,

what do you make of 1 Cor 14:29? To me, it means that in each meeting, just 2-3 should prophesy. Not 30 people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

Hi all, what do you make of 1 Cor 14:29? To me, it means that in each meeting, just 2-3 should prophesy. Not 30 people.

And interestingly, the rest of the attendants should evaluate or weigh carefully what the 2 or 3 just prophecied.

None of us should consider for one minute that real prophecying is merely repeating Lee's messages.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And interestingly, the rest of the attendants should evaluate or weigh carefully what the 2 or 3 just prophecied. None of us should consider for one minute that real prophecying is merely repeating Lee's messages.

Unfortunately, some people seem to want to insist that the LC is the only group that has a practice of prophecying. It is ironic then that what is practiced in the LC is the mere repetition of the words of one man. And as I have tried to explain to Evangelical, this repetition is often done without even having any understanding of what Lee was talking about.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Unfortunately, some people seem to want to insist that the LC is the only group that has a practice of prophecying. It is ironic then that what is practiced in the LC is the mere repetition of the words of one man. And as I have tried to explain to Evangelical, this repetition is often done without even having any understanding of what Lee was talking about.

Which groups practice prophesying then? Which denominations? Of the small percentage that believe prophesying and prophets still exist today, these ones would not give any time in the meetings or church service for prophesying. It's almost 100% or 99% of Christian that does not prophesy.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Which groups practice prophesying then? Which denominations? Of the small percentage that believe prophesying and prophets still exist today, these ones would not give any time in the meetings or church service for prophesying. It's almost 100% or 99% of Christian that does not prophesy.

You claim that 99%-100% of Christians don't prophesy, yet that kind of blanket statement neglects the fact that many (or even possibly the majority) don't have the gift to do so. In all fairness, I don't know what percentage of Christians have that gift, however, I don't think there is any reason to assume that most do.

The way that prophesying is evidenced is very simple. Whenever a prophet speaks, then prophesying is being practiced. I think people need to move away from this idea that prophesying is evidenced by the number of people speaking. Unless you know who all possess that gift, then how can you claim that people should be practicing it but aren't? That is the problem with what Lee taught. When you claim these outrageous numbers, saying that 99% of Christians do not prophesy, that is based on the false assumption that 99% have the gift of prophecy and aren't using it.

I do acknowledge your concern that some who should be functioning in that way aren't. It's a legitimate concern, and perhaps Christian leaders do need to make sure there is more opportunity for people to speak. But consider the flip side to this. I can say with absolute confidence that in the LC, people are pressured to function outside of their individual gifts. To me, that is a far more severe problem than a simple 'idleness' when it comes to functioning. People refuse to function are mainly hurting themselves. But in the LC sometimes you see people speaking who shouldn't be or saying things that aren't of benefit to everyone. That is a more pressing problem because it effects everyone in the group.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

You claim that 99%-100% of Christians don't prophesy, yet that kind of blanket statement neglects the fact that many (or even possibly the majority) don't have the gift to do so. In all fairness, I don't know what percentage of Christians have that gift, however, I don't think there is any reason to assume that most do.

The way that prophesying is evidenced is very simple. Whenever a prophet speaks, then prophesying is being practiced. I think people need to move away from this idea that prophesying is evidenced by the number of people speaking. Unless you know who all possess that gift, then how can you claim that people should be practicing it but aren't? That is the problem with what Lee taught. When you claim these outrageous numbers, saying that 99% of Christians do not prophesy, that is based on the false assumption that 99% have the gift of prophecy and aren't using it.

I do acknowledge your concern that some who should be functioning in that way aren't. It's a legitimate concern, and perhaps Christian leaders do need to make sure there is more opportunity for people to speak. But consider the flip side to this. I can say with absolute confidence that in the LC, people are pressured to function outside of their individual gifts. To me, that is a far more severe problem than a simple 'idleness' when it comes to functioning. People refuse to function are mainly hurting themselves. But in the LC sometimes you see people speaking who shouldn't be or saying things that aren't of benefit to everyone. That is a more pressing problem because it effects everyone in the group.

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

You have neither read the Bible nor my post.

This word is not to all members but to "all the prophets."

But you cannot interpret this properly because Lee did not, and you take Lee's interpretation over the plain reading of the scriptures.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We don't need a gift of prophesy to prophesy, just like we don't need a gift of evangelism to evangelize.
1 Corinthians 14:31 says we may all prophesy one by one, for edification. This does not mean everyone has a gift of prophesy.

1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.

The first verse of chapter 14 implies that we can realize gifts we don't have or don't think we have, especially if we desire for that gift. Towards the end of the chapter, notice the phrase "If anyone thinks they are a prophet..." What Paul said here seems to indicate that his word about prophesying is directed at those who view themselves as having that gift.

So I still think there is a prerequisite to having that gift in order to use it. I remember an LC brother saying he had been a Pentecostal, and he had to practice tongue-speaking out of pressure. So in essence, whatever group he had been with was forcing people to practice tongue-speaking whether or not they had the gift. This is the same kind of criticism that I am directing at the practice of prophesying.

I think that people who feel they have the gift of prophecy should feel free to use it. But by the same token, having a specific meeting called a "prophesying meeting," naturally excludes those who don't have the gift or don't feel it their place to function in that way. Remember that Paul says that meetings should be conducted in a fitting and orderly way. That implies some kind of oversight over what is spoken and who is speaking.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And interestingly, the rest of the attendants should evaluate or weigh carefully what the 2 or 3 just prophecied. None of us should consider for one minute that real prophecying is merely repeating Lee's messages.

The local churches also believe that real prophesying is not merely repeating Lee's messages. Everyone is encouraged to compose a prophesy which is an inspired message from the Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The local churches also believe that real prophesying is not merely repeating Lee's messages. Everyone is encouraged to compose a prophesy which is an inspired message from the Lord.

"Inspired" message from a tape recorder?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The local churches also believe that real prophesying is not merely repeating Lee's messages. Everyone is encouraged to compose a prophesy which is an inspired message from the Lord.

As Ohio says, the speaking is mostly inspired out of something from Lee's ministry. Sure, people can put what he said in their own words, but unless they truly have something new to say that is somehow related to something WL said, then it is nothing more than repetition. I can't tell you how many times I heard the elders encourage everyone in the prophesying meeting to just "follow the outline" and share directly from booklet.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Freedom

As Ohio says, the speaking is mostly inspired out of something from Lee's ministry. Sure, people can put what he said in their own words, but unless they truly have something new to say that is somehow related to something WL said, then it is nothing more than repetition. I can't tell you how many times I heard the elders encourage everyone in the prophesying meeting to just "follow the outline" and share directly from booklet.

Sometimes God can inspire us to speak what Lee said. Many relate it to their own experiences or insights.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Sometimes God can inspire us to speak what Lee said. Many relate it to their own experiences or insights.

Of course that sometimes happens, but that is not how LC members are constantly instructed.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course that sometimes happens, but that is not how LC members are constantly instructed.

My observation has been that LC members (including myself) are instructed to fellowship with the Lord, use our spirit to contact the Lord, then write down our inspiration. We are never told to repeat Lee's messages. Maybe that's how it was in the 70's/80's. In fact, if anything, I've noticed people try to out do Witness Lee in their spiritual revelation and insight. That is, to merely repeat Lee's messages is seen as a less spiritual thing to do than to be able to compose your own inspired message. Anyone who merely repeats Lees messages is seen to be a less spiritually mature Christian. I think this all points to the fact that on this matter of LC members being taught to simply repeat Lee's messages, is quite wrong. If they are just starting to learn to speak in a meeting, then speaking Lee's messages might be the first thing they are encouraged to do, but they are expected to move on from that and compose and deliver their own prophesies.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

Hi all, what do you make of 1 Cor 14:29? To me, it means that in each meeting, just 2-3 should prophesy. Not 30 people.

A church is supposedly 2-3, according to some here, so if that's the case, it's really saying that the whole church should prophesy.

See: Matt 18:20 "For where two or three gather together as my followers, I am there among them."

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

A church is supposedly 2-3, according to some here, so if that's the case, it's really saying that the whole church should prophesy.

See: Matt 18:20 "For where two or three gather together as my followers, I am there among them."

1 Cor 14 v 29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.

Reading this verse, one can tell that Paul is not talking about a three-people church here.

There are at least four people in this verse:-
(1) Two speakers. (Room is given for a third speaker) (Paul does not give room for a fourth or fifth speaker).
(2) The others who are discerning:- The word is "others" so this means at least two people are discerning, possibly more.

It's hard to see how one can reach the conclusion that all should speak in a meeting.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

1 Cor 14 v 29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.

Reading this verse, one can tell that Paul is not talking about a three-people church here.

There are at least four people in this verse:-
(1) Two speakers. (Room is given for a third speaker) (Paul does not give room for a fourth or fifth speaker).
(2) The others who are discerning:- The word is "others" so this means at least two people are discerning, possibly more.

It's hard to see how one can reach the conclusion that all should speak in a meeting.

Good points here.

The subsequent instruction to this verse is 14.31, "For you can all prophesy one by one." This refers to all the prophets, who are instructed to take turns speaking, yet limit themselves to two or three, obviously per meeting, and giving time to discernment 14.29, and for that matter time to those with a revelation, with a psalm, with a teaching, and a tongue (with interpretation 14.27, of course), as Paul instructs in 14.26.

LSMers love this verse 14.31, but take it out of context. Here Paul is not speaking to every church member, but to all the prophets. This is proven by 12.29, "Are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers ..." The obvious answer to Paul's rhetorical is "no."

For LSM LCs to be faithful to Paul's word here, as they boast that they alone are, they would not encourage every member to prophesy, rather they would provide time for the discernment of the prophecies, they would encourage tongues with interpretations, and they would encourage local brothers to bring revelations and teachings to the meetings, something they strongly prohibit.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

1 Cor 14 v 29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.

Reading this verse, one can tell that Paul is not talking about a three-people church here.

There are at least four people in this verse:-
(1) Two speakers. (Room is given for a third speaker) (Paul does not give room for a fourth or fifth speaker).
(2) The others who are discerning:- The word is "others" so this means at least two people are discerning, possibly more.

It's hard to see how one can reach the conclusion that all should speak in a meeting.

Agree that it is at least 4. Sort of rules out 2-3 person churches doesn't it?

Back on topic - 1 Corinthians 14:31 says everyone in the church can prophesy, one by one. The more prophesying, the more edification. That is why everyone is encouraged to speak in the meeting.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

Hi all,

what do you make of 1 Cor 14:29? To me, it means that in each meeting, just 2-3 should prophesy. Not 30 people.

Been trying to make this statement for some time.

In addition, the phrase "all can prophesy" that comes later is in the context of a definition of who can prophesy (the 2 or 3), not the overturning of the statement that 2 or 3 should be designated.

[aron]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

what do you make of 1 Cor 14:29? To me, it means that in each meeting, just 2-3 should prophesy. Not 30 people.

I think context is important here. Paul was writing to a church where bedlam reigned in the meetings. Everyone was trying to out-shout each other. Like it was the day of Pentecost every day. Everyone trying to get into the tongues of angels.

Paul said, "If people come into this meeting, who will get saved?" (1 Cor 14:23) He was trying to restore a sense of order, and decorum. Witness Lee distorted it. Instead of the "You can all prophesy, one by one" Lee made it "You can ALL prophesy, one by one".

And anyone who went off (Lee's) message and gave a private revelation didn't get much of an amen. You'd do better to bust a vein, screaming an outline bullet point or a footnote phrase. Then you'd get the "ayyeemennn", the broad smiles and fist pumps.