Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Really, I thought you would like that, I learned that from you with your reference to go read Genesis and learn that God created marriage.

Touchy. I was not being condescending, neither did I tell you to learn that God created marriage. "see Genesis" was a reference. I agree, having a godly marriage (or just having a heterosexual marriage, even it is ungodly) is a positive influence. But I don't think homosexuals are saying to themselves "wow look at that perfect hetero couple, I don't think we should get married". Someone has to say what's wrong is wrong and what's right is right.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Someone has to say what's wrong is wrong and what's right is right.

I agree. What I disagree with is that this someone is you or me. I have been given a commission to preach the gospel, I have not been given a commission to judge the world. I can judge myself. Judgement does begin with the house of God. If you want to take issue with some denomination marrying gays and having homosexual priests, I would agree with you.

But I do not see the church as a political organization, I do not see our calling as a calling to change the secular laws of a nation, I do not see our calling to condemn the world.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree. What I disagree with is that this someone is you or me. I have been given a commission to preach the gospel, I have not been given a commission to judge the world. I can judge myself. Judgement does begin with the house of God. If you want to take issue with some denomination marrying gays and having homosexual priests, I would agree with you.

But I do not see the church as a political organization, I do not see our calling as a calling to change the secular laws of a nation, I do not see our calling to condemn the world.

But I am not talking about judging the world. Judgement begins with the house of God, as you say. I have provided statistics that 63% of Protestants say there is “no conflict” between their religious beliefs and homosexuality. My judgement is that this is a sign of degraded Christianity. I am more than happy to consider Protestants to equal "the world" if you like, in which case I will not judge them, but last time I checked Protestants are considered to be part of Christianity.

Regarding preaching the gospel - what is the gospel? The gospel includes: "repent for the kingdom of heaven is near". Telling others to repent because their ways are wrong is part of preaching the gospel. So I don't know why you say on the one hand your job is "to preach the gospel" yet on the other is not to tell others right from wrong. You must not be preaching the gospel of the kingdom, but the significantly shortened version. According to the Bible, it is our job to say right is right and wrong is wrong. This is not for judgement but for warning and repentance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Regarding preaching the gospel - what is the gospel? The gospel includes: "repent for the kingdom of heaven is near". Telling others to repent because their ways are wrong is part of preaching the gospel. So I don't know why you say on the one hand your job is "to preach the gospel" yet on the other is not to tell others right from wrong. You must not be preaching the gospel of the kingdom, but the significantly shortened version. According to the Bible, it is our job to say right is right and wrong is wrong. This is not for judgement but for warning and repentance.

You do a very poor job of quoting people. You change what people say, you read in things they didn't say and you misinterpret what they said. It seems there are numerous posters complaining of you doing this, not just me.

Yes, if your word is in the context of the gospel, calling people to repent from sins, that would be great. Whenever you preach the gospel there is a call to repentance, there is also a path for that repentance, the way of salvation, and the good news of the kingdom of God.

The US is not the kingdom of God. Passing laws is not the way of salvation. What works is a new heart.

You are trying to complain about the Supreme court, laws of this land and then somehow tie this into the preaching of the gospel. You have confused "legalism" with Evangelism.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You do a very poor job of quoting people. You change what people say, you read in things they didn't say and you misinterpret what they said. It seems there are numerous posters complaining of you doing this, not just me.

Yes, if your word is in the context of the gospel, calling people to repent from sins, that would be great. Whenever you preach the gospel there is a call to repentance, there is also a path for that repentance, the way of salvation, and the good news of the kingdom of God.

The US is not the kingdom of God. Passing laws is not the way of salvation. What works is a new heart.

You are trying to complain about the Supreme court, laws of this land and then somehow tie this into the preaching of the gospel. You have confused "legalism" with Evangelism.

ZNPaaneah, in preaching the gospel how can we tell someone to repent of something they do not know is wrong? We must tell them what is right and what is wrong, so they know what they are repenting of. I can imagine you preaching the gospel to a homosexual couple, and asking them to repent, Jesus loves them. Then they will ask you, repent of what? And you will not tell them that homosexuality is wrong, because it is not your place to do so. So your gospel preaching will be in vain.

I believe it is you who have misrepresented what I said, and then you claim I do the same. As an example of how you have changed what I have said, my posts have not been about the laws of the land or the Supreme court but concerning the statistics that "Protestants (62%) now favor allowing gays and lesbians to wed", which is related to the topic of degraded Christianity. If you look through my previous posts you will see they are focused on the topic of the church, not the laws of the land. If Protestants were not degraded, then that statistic should say "0% favor allowing gays and lesbians to wed". Regardless of what the laws of the land or Supreme court say, it is that a majority of Protestants support gay marriage which demonstrates their degradation.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, in preaching the gospel how can we tell someone to repent of something they do not know is wrong? We must tell them what is right and what is wrong, so they know what they are repenting of.

Not sure that you really have to do that. No matter what the issue (at least in terms of major points of immorality and unrighteousness) people know. They may have figured out how to talk themselves into believing that it is not, but somewhere inside, they know.

After that, the preachcing of the gospel — whether in just being a good representative of the righteousness of God living in the world and being seen by the unsaved, or just saying that you were once not like that and have changed because of Christ, or doing a serious telling of God and salvation — is all we have to do. Whether anything comes of it is not ours to do.

It is not in hammering people with their sin that they seek forgiveness. That usually results in the opposite effect. Hardening of the heart.

And outlawing things according to Christian morality just helps those who would obey laws to think they are really OK without God because they can keep those more Christian-like rules. Those who don't or wont generally are not interested in being good anyway.

"Turn or burn" is only effective on those who are on the verge or believing anyway.

Why not preach the gospel to a homosexual without forcing the issue of homosexuality? If they actually turn to Jesus, even if they have not yet seen the error of their sexual preferences, they are still at least started down the road. Brow-beating them with the error of their ways is proof that you don't really want people to believe in Jesus, but to act like it. And wanting the laws to support your position only makes you even more reprehensible in the sinner's eyes.

Love your neighbor. All that crap about "tough love" is not relevant to the kind of love that Jesus was talking about.

[Evangelical]

Telling people that homosexuality is wrong is "hammering people with their sin", is it?

It would not make sense to tell a homosexual couple to repent of their sin of stealing a candy bar when they were 6 years old, when the "elephant in the room" is staring you in the face. Jesus always addressed the biggest sin first. For the rich man it was his money, for the tax collector it was his greed.

When John the baptist came to Earth, he did not preach only to those who were "on the verge of believing". The call to repentance was universal. If they responded negatively to that it was not his fault but theirs.

Mark 1:15 says to repent and believe, not believe and then repent later when you feel like it.

In reference to the gospel, we are not "gospel caterers" but gospel preachers. To cater the gospel is to make it attractive and palatable to the sinner. To preach the gospel is to tell it in its pure and unadulterated form as much as possible. We do not need to make the gospel attractive and palatable to sinners. The gospel in and of itself is attractive to those who would believe.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

But I am not talking about judging the world.

Fooled me:

Post #45 Evangelical:

Changing Attitudes on Gay Marriage

Public opinion on same-sex marriage

In Pew Research Center polling in 2001, Americans opposed same-sex marriage by a margin of 57% to 35%.

Since then, support for same-sex marriage has steadily grown. Based on polling in 2016, a majority of Americans (55%) support same-sex marriage, compared with 37% who oppose it. See the latest data on same-sex marriage.

Post #61 Evangelical:

The government did not invent or create marriage. Marriage came from God (see Genesis), and Christians are supposed to be representatives of God, therefore Christians should uphold the true definition of marriage in the world.


Post #70 Evangelical

So marriage according to God and marriage according to the government is different. They cannot be both marriage, they must be two different things. Anyone who marries according to the government must not be truly married in God's eyes.

For a Christian obedience to God's law comes first (that homosexuality is forbidden), obeying the government's law comes next.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fooled me:
Post #45 Evangelical:
Changing Attitudes on Gay Marriage
Public opinion on same-sex marriage
In Pew Research Center polling in 2001, Americans opposed same-sex marriage by a margin of 57% to 35%.
Since then, support for same-sex marriage has steadily grown. Based on polling in 2016, a majority of Americans (55%) support same-sex marriage, compared with 37% who oppose it. See the latest data on same-sex marriage.

You didn't quote my first statistic regarding Christianity, here is another from that website:.

Roughly six-in-ten Catholics (58%) now support same-sex marriage, as do nearly two-thirds of white mainline Protestants (64%).

So the Catholics and the Protestants both are degraded in the majority. You just can't handle that the statistics speak for themselves regarding the degradation of Christianity. If that number grows to 80%, 90% or 99% in a few years time, you will still not admit that Christianity is degraded.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Post #61 Evangelical:

The government did not invent or create marriage. Marriage came from God (see Genesis), and Christians are supposed to be representatives of God, therefore Christians should uphold the true definition of marriage in the world.

This is about what Christians should do - uphold the true definition of marriage in the world. Do you see anything judgmental or condemning in that statement about the world? I don't.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Post #70 Evangelical

So marriage according to God and marriage according to the government is different. They cannot be both marriage, they must be two different things. Anyone who marries according to the government must not be truly married in God's eyes.

For a Christian obedience to God's law comes first (that homosexuality is forbidden), obeying the government's law comes next.

Nothing judgmental about the world here either. It makes the point that if the government's and God's view of marriage is different, then they must not be the same thing.

You said I was "railing against the laws of the US, the Supreme court, etc.".

In these statements of mine which you quoted, I cannot see any railings against the laws of the US or the Supreme court. We did discuss this in another thread however and you must be getting confused. This thread is about degradation of Christianity. If Christianity supports or agrees with pro-homosexual marriage laws, it is only another sign of their degradation.

[UntoHim]

Ok guys, the gay marriage argument has run it's course. Actually, I can't remember Witness Lee ever addressing the matter. Same for Nee.

Let's move on.
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[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ok guys, the gay marriage argument has run it's course. Actually, I can't remember Witness Lee ever addressing the matter. Same for Nee.

Let's move on.
-

See the section:
"A Faithful Appraisal of the Degraded System of Christianity"
at
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org...istianity.html