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ZNPaaneah · 02-26-2017, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I have had a lot of fun with fundamentalism. I grew up with it. They shouldn't be allowed to have 'fun' associated with it. But I don't group-hate them. Much of my family here are fundamentalist types. And I truly love them. I've noticed that they aren't all the same. And that their fundamentalism is shaped by prejudices they grew up with. Thus my cousin and the Ham/slavery/God's Laws story. And by the way, I jumped all over him when he said that, right in front of all present. Pretty much the same way I jumped you for the Ishmael claim. I said, "You've got to be kidding." He wasn't. But he knows better than to debate Bible with me.

Just a personal confession, to maybe clear up misperceptions I may have generated out here so far. I grew up with a staunch Southern Baptist mother. She took me to church every time the doors were opened. My father was a rough Kentucky boy, that grew up in these necks of the woods,, in what was known as The Land Betwixt the Rivers (moonshiners) now Land Between the Lakes (LBL). He was rough and tough and mean, and was an outspoken unapologetic racist. He once kicked my sister and I out of his house, cuz we tried to explain that we had to work with, and get along with, blacks. He said, "I never raised you to be nigger lovers. Get out of my house." Yet he's my dad. I have to love him.

Maybe that's why I actually get along with people on both or all extremes of the spectrum. To me no matter how we group people it ends up that there are both good and bad in all groups.

That's why I can't buy into the Ham curse thing, or the Ishmael/Arab thing. To think that something said or written 3000 years ago applies today, is like saying the city of Damascus 11,000 years ago, or more recently 2500 years ago, was the same as it is today. It's unrealistic to absurdity.

But back to the New Man. When we become a New Man, do we look down on or despise those that aren't? Is that how it works? The New Man has a group to hate? Does that match the sermon on the mount? Or was Jesus just speaking platitudes? When did Christianity become about group-hate?

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

awareness · 02-26-2017, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

Oh but it does. Here's just a little sample :

Slaveholders justified the practice by citing the Bible ...

They asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

If you want more check out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

Ohio · 02-26-2017, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

ZNPaaneah · 02-26-2017, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

Ohio · 02-26-2017, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

ZNPaaneah · 02-26-2017, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

awareness · 02-26-2017, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

ZNPaaneah · 02-27-2017, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

And Satan appearing as an angel of light is not neutral.

awareness · 02-26-2017, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

That's a mischaracterization. The Bible regulates slavery, providing rules. But it doesn't forbid it anywhere, both Old and New.

ZNPaaneah · 04-13-2017, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

That's a mischaracterization. The Bible regulates slavery, providing rules. But it doesn't forbid it anywhere, both Old and New.

Slavery as regulated by rules in the Bible is very similar to an NFL contract.

The regulations in the bible clearly and specifically prohibit chattel slavery or slave traders or slavery based on race or lifetime slavery, etc. According to the Biblical regulations slavery was a choice that the person being enslaved chose and it was temporary.

However, when you say that the Bible "justified" slavery those unfamiliar with the Bible assume you are saying that the Bible justified slavery as practiced by Southern plantations in the US prior to the Civil War. The Bible does not justify those practices, it specifically prohibited them. Hence your statements are intentionally misleading.

Ohio · 04-13-2017, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Slavery as regulated by rules in the Bible is very similar to an NFL contract.

After watching the movie Concussion, perhaps Biblical slavery is preferable.

awareness · 02-26-2017, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Why wouldn't you have? But then Catholics have never seemed as serious about their religion as Southern Baptists, so I wouldn't know. My dad, and my mom, made it plain and out front. I couldn't miss it.

But it was because I saw the failures in the SBC that I was attracted to the local church all-in characteristics. They seemed to be more true. It took me time to discover the hypocrisy in the local church.

In the end they both failed me. And I guess I'm a little pissed off about it. Sorry if I'm taking it out on you guys. Y'all never done anything to me. Mea culpa.