Wait, It's A Cult?

Evangelical · 04-18-2017, 05:19 PM

I think we need a strong absolute definition of what is the church and what are sects so we can see what are the cults. I do not think that the 9 questions that leastofthese put forward are so helpful or reliable in defining what is a cult. The reason is that the "point scoring approach" is biased toward the purpose of the survey and does not consider the weight of each question.

I will explain a little about "weight" using an example. Suppose there is a set of questions that aim to find out "do you have cancer"? If a person answered yes to only two questions "do you feel tired?", and "is there cancer in your family?", probably they don't have cancer. However if the two questions they answered yes to were about painless swellings or lumps, then the chance that it is cancer may be higher. In other words, each question is weighted differently, so it is not a simple matter of counting how many questions you answer "yes" to.

"survey bias" is another problem. Suppose I asked you 3 questions, and you did not know what the test is about:
1) do you feel tired?
2) do you drink and smoke?
3) do you have any painless swellings or lumps?

Suppose you answered yes to all three. If the survey was about "do I have cancer", you might be very worried and make a doctor's appointment. On the other hand, if the survey was about "do you live a healthy lifestyle", then we probably would not worry as much. The decision about whether or not the survey is true and what action you will take, depends strongly upon what the survey is actually about.

It is for these reasons that we cannot rely upon these sort of tests for determining whether or not the local churches are a cult.

Another problem with this approach is that we still need to decide how many of these 9 points will be answered "yes" before we conclude it is a cult. For the Catholic church, the number of questions answered 'yes' may be higher than the number of questions answered 'yes' for the Baptist church. Does it mean Catholic are "more of a cult" than Baptist? No.

This is tricky because it depends. For example two or three of the points may apply to a number of denominations and well known Christian ministries (particularly tv evangelists and mega churches) but we would not say they are a cult.

Most of the points seem to apply to the Catholic church but we would not say they are a cult. JW, Mormon and SDA satisfy a number of the points, but most Christians would not say they are a cult, but a sect. Worshipping false gods is not necessarily cultish.

The problem is that the word cult is defined according to our own view of orthodoxy and what is a "church". For example, "salvation is not through Jesus" or "salvation is by works" does not define a cult. That could be any religion or even atheism.

I think the missing thing is as I have said, hypnosis and evil intent. But we also need a strong definition of church.

I think a better term for churches that are not churches and not cults, are sects. If they are not churches and they are not cults, then what are they? They are sects. But then Protestantism is a sect of Catholicism. The Church of England for example is a sect. This view is too difficult. We need a correct absolute view of the church based upon the bible and only then can we properly see what is a sect and what is a cult. The absolute and biblical pattern of church is the church as the locality , the church in Corinth, the church in Rome, the church in Ephesus etc.

My definition is thus:
The church in the locality is "the church". The sub-groups within the locality with other names (the denominations) are sects. The groups that satisfy most of the criteria, and are clearly not the church or sects, including hypnosis and evil intent, are cults.

I believe this definition is superior to other definitions (including the scoring/point system put forward by the OP) for the following reasons:

Based upon the absolute pattern of church in bible, it is easy to define clearly what is a church and what is not. We avoid the relativism and subjectivity associated with the "9 points" put forward in the OP. That is, it avoids the situation of having to worry about how many points are answered "yes" before we conclude it is a cult. As I explained before, one denomination may be a "yes" to most of the points, but another may hit only one or two.

The strong and absolute definition of church, also avoids wrongly concluding that Roman Catholicism or JW or Mormons are cults. It also prevents us incorrectly calling other religions cults, just because they believe in works-based salvation or reject the Trinity.

leastofthese · 04-18-2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I do not think that the 9 questions that leastofthese put forward are so helpful or reliable in defining what is a cult.

I don't disagree with you Evangelical, I said as much in my intro. This doesn't change the fact that it was the top google search. Which, I would think, is relevant at least as much as to shed light on what the general population may first read when looking for more information on cults.

Which locality do you meet with?

Evangelical · 04-18-2017, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I don't disagree with you Evangelical, I said as much in my intro. This doesn't change the fact that it was the top google search. Which, I would think, is relevant at least as much as to shed light on what the general population may first read when looking for more information on cults.

Which locality do you meet with?

I'm not blaming you, this is a difficult subject and interesting conversation. Surveys can be valid if done properly but I wanted to point out their shortcomings. There may be a perfect survey somewhere with a high success rate of determining what is and what is not a cult. I cannot disclose my locality on a public forum, sorry.

leastofthese · 04-18-2017, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot disclose my locality on a public forum, sorry.

How would that statement factor in to the larger discussion?

Evangelical · 04-18-2017, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

How would that statement factor in to the larger discussion?

Exactly, it doesn't.

leastofthese · 04-18-2017, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Exactly, it doesn't.

Or it would apply to #9? "intimidation is often used to keep cult members from even thinking about getting out."

I was specifically told not to read anything regarding the LSM denomination online, lest I be "poisoned". This was followed by a bible verse on poison, I'm sure you've heard the same and can quote the verse. Likely - you also have experienced an anecdote about being positive and focusing on heavenly things. Whatever you do, don't read anything that goes against the ministry.

I've never heard this in all my years in non-denominational churches. Yet it was a constant during my time within the LSM denomination.

Evangelical · 04-18-2017, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Or it would apply to #9? "intimidation is often used to keep cult members from even thinking about getting out."

I was specifically told not to read anything regarding the LSM denomination online, lest I be "poisoned". This was followed by a bible verse on poison, I'm sure you've heard the same and can quote the verse. Likely - you also have experienced an anecdote about being positive and focusing on heavenly things. Whatever you do, don't read anything that goes against the ministry.

I've never heard this in all my years in non-denominational churches. Yet it was a constant during my time within the LSM denomination.

If that were true then how can Drake and I be on this forum?

04-18-2017, 05:19 PM	#1
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,965	Re: Definition of a Cult I think we need a strong absolute definition of what is the church and what are sects so we can see what are the cults. I do not think that the 9 questions that leastofthese put forward are so helpful or reliable in defining what is a cult. The reason is that the "point scoring approach" is biased toward the purpose of the survey and does not consider the weight of each question. I will explain a little about "weight" using an example. Suppose there is a set of questions that aim to find out "do you have cancer"? If a person answered yes to only two questions "do you feel tired?", and "is there cancer in your family?", probably they don't have cancer. However if the two questions they answered yes to were about painless swellings or lumps, then the chance that it is cancer may be higher. In other words, each question is weighted differently, so it is not a simple matter of counting how many questions you answer "yes" to. "survey bias" is another problem. Suppose I asked you 3 questions, and you did not know what the test is about: 1) do you feel tired? 2) do you drink and smoke? 3) do you have any painless swellings or lumps? Suppose you answered yes to all three. If the survey was about "do I have cancer", you might be very worried and make a doctor's appointment. On the other hand, if the survey was about "do you live a healthy lifestyle", then we probably would not worry as much. The decision about whether or not the survey is true and what action you will take, depends strongly upon what the survey is actually about. It is for these reasons that we cannot rely upon these sort of tests for determining whether or not the local churches are a cult. Another problem with this approach is that we still need to decide how many of these 9 points will be answered "yes" before we conclude it is a cult. For the Catholic church, the number of questions answered 'yes' may be higher than the number of questions answered 'yes' for the Baptist church. Does it mean Catholic are "more of a cult" than Baptist? No. This is tricky because it depends. For example two or three of the points may apply to a number of denominations and well known Christian ministries (particularly tv evangelists and mega churches) but we would not say they are a cult. Most of the points seem to apply to the Catholic church but we would not say they are a cult. JW, Mormon and SDA satisfy a number of the points, but most Christians would not say they are a cult, but a sect. Worshipping false gods is not necessarily cultish. The problem is that the word cult is defined according to our own view of orthodoxy and what is a "church". For example, "salvation is not through Jesus" or "salvation is by works" does not define a cult. That could be any religion or even atheism. I think the missing thing is as I have said, hypnosis and evil intent. But we also need a strong definition of church. I think a better term for churches that are not churches and not cults, are sects. If they are not churches and they are not cults, then what are they? They are sects. But then Protestantism is a sect of Catholicism. The Church of England for example is a sect. This view is too difficult. We need a correct absolute view of the church based upon the bible and only then can we properly see what is a sect and what is a cult. The absolute and biblical pattern of church is the church as the locality , the church in Corinth, the church in Rome, the church in Ephesus etc. My definition is thus: The church in the locality is "the church". The sub-groups within the locality with other names (the denominations) are sects. The groups that satisfy most of the criteria, and are clearly not the church or sects, including hypnosis and evil intent, are cults. I believe this definition is superior to other definitions (including the scoring/point system put forward by the OP) for the following reasons: Based upon the absolute pattern of church in bible, it is easy to define clearly what is a church and what is not. We avoid the relativism and subjectivity associated with the "9 points" put forward in the OP. That is, it avoids the situation of having to worry about how many points are answered "yes" before we conclude it is a cult. As I explained before, one denomination may be a "yes" to most of the points, but another may hit only one or two. The strong and absolute definition of church, also avoids wrongly concluding that Roman Catholicism or JW or Mormons are cults. It also prevents us incorrectly calling other religions cults, just because they believe in works-based salvation or reject the Trinity.