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07-05-2017, 09:35 AM
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
Unreg "The woman in Rev 12:1-5, is Israel. If you say that this woman is the church, you have a BIG problem, because the church is a VIRGIN BRIDE (2Cor 11:2) and this woman in Rev. is “pregnant”. Rev 12, is a “summary of Israel” that started in Gen 3:15, where we see the term: “her seed” or “seed of the woman”, meaning the woman has seed or gives birth. A “mother-Son” relationship and NOT a “Bridegroom-bride” relationship, because Israel gives birth to the child who is Jesus which is confirmed in Rev 12: 2,5 (read verses). The male child in verse 5, is Jesus and NOT “the stronger part of the church” which is W. Lee’s wrong interpretation.
Your argument here about the VIRGIN BRIDE giving birth is not a problem unless you also think Mary being a virgin and giving birth to Jesus is a problem. Your argument is a moral one not a biblically based one. Unreg "Why is W. Lee’s interpretation wrong? Because as I explained in detail in my original post, W. Lee’s teaching does NOT have Israelology in his teaching (83% of the Bible is related to Israel), as a result of that, his Eschatology (33% is Prophecy in the Bible) is wrong and as a result of that, his Ecclesiology (result of NOT knowing Israeology) is also wrong. When you lack understanding or completely ignore, Israelology you will do exactly what W. Lee did in his teaching: " When you put on the "83% of the Bible is related to Israel" glasses they become filters in your understanding and hermeneutics. Your starting point will then lead you into other misunderstandings and errors. For instance, if you believe that the woman of Revelation 12 is Israel and only Israel then you will have to conclude that the man child is Jesus and only Jesus. However, in so doing you will also have great difficulty with the timeline. To start off with Revelation 1:1 says clearly that the signs show the things that must take place. Revelation 12:1 shows the woman is a great sign, therefore it is a future event based from the time of the writing in the latter half of the first century, not before Christ was born as you assert. This is an error on your part because you have donned Israelology glasses that filter the complete biblical revelation. If the man child is only Jesus then then you will also have trouble reconciling the Dragon being cast to the earth to devour the baby Jesus in the manger, the reason for the Dragon and one third of the angels being cast to earth, and why it takes Satan and one third of his angels to engage in infanticide in a failed attempt to wipe out Jesus. Also, you would have to violate the timeline of the future war in heaven v7-9 while leaving the obvious future event of the woman fleeing to the wilderness in v6 in place unless you want to bring that forward too prior to the birth of Jesus in which case you will have to explain where in history Israel fled into the wilderness and was nourished by God for a thousand two hundred and sixty days. A third example of the trouble you will have reconciling the woman as Israel only and the man child as Jesus only is found in verse 5. To maintain the position you hold will require you to ignore the meaning of the word used for "caught up" which roots are based in selection and to pluck. Jesus resurrection and ascension do not use this word. Unreg "it does NOT differentiate Israel from the church, it applies what is for Israel to the church (read his Life Studies, ex.Jer 31:31), making a big salad with Israel and the church." I am not aware of anywhere where Brother Lee teaches replacement theology. However, in reference to Jerusalem 31:31 speaking of the new covenant of course the church is living in the new covenant. That was for Israel too but they obviously are not living in it unless they become believers like any other christian in this age of grace. As a nation, they will live in the new covenant in the coming Kingdom once the Lord returns and establishes it in the future and the nation repents and receives Him as the Messiah on that glorious day (Revelation 1:7). In summary Unreg. First, let me say I appreciate your posts. They are focused on the teachings and you challenge them forcefully. That is commendable and a welcome addition to this forum. Having said that your teachings on Revelation 12 are lacking. Just saying the woman is Israel because 83% of the Bible is related to Israel......even if that were proven valid perhaps this is part of the 17% that includes something more. The timeline in Revelation 12 (the birth of the manchild, the Dragon and one third of the angels cast to earth, the war in heaven, the plucking up of the man child, the wilderness experience of the woman, etc.) simply falls apart with your interpretation and the meaning of actual words must be ignored such as "caught up" when referring to the manchild. Thanks Drake |
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07-05-2017, 09:37 AM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,828
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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07-05-2017, 05:55 PM
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#3 | |
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
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Answer: I can see that you are not understanding why I mention Israelology? It is because Israelology plays a big role (83%) in the Bible, since the Bible is a Judeo-Christian Book. Not because everything is Israel, just to be aware of that BIG point that we should consider when studying the Bible. Otherwise you come up with “free” allegories that you find in the Life Studies of W. Lee. Another point you are misunderstanding is that the book of Revelation itself gives you an outline of the whole book in Rev 1:19. 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen (past, about Christ, chp 1), and the things which are (present, chp 2,3, the 7 churches), and the things which will take place (future, chp 4-22) after these things. Notice that the book of Revelation is the conclusion of the whole Bible plus is a prophetic book, meaning telling us things that will happen in the FUTURE, but still tells us things from the PAST and PRESENT (read verse Rev 1:19). You mention the conflict with the “time line”, this verse answers your question. Verse 19 is a general outline of Revelation with MANY INSERTIONS. (For further explanation see the paragraph about heptadic structure of Revelation below). Also, you mention the confusion in Rev 12:5. By the way that verse is very controversial even among very good scholars. 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. The Son is Christ. The second half of verse 5, says “caught up” which is the same Greek word for “rapture” as in 1Thes 4:17. G.H. Pember is the first one that brought up that the “child” could ALSO INCLUDE the Body of Christ. Remember that we are talking already about Eschatology, the conclusion of Israel and the conclusion of the whole Bible. Additionally, please notice in order to understand properly the book of Revelation, you have to study the book of Daniel (these 2 books go together) because in this particular case, in between verses 5 and 6 of Rev 12, there is a gap or interval of time; which is the same gap in between verses 25 and 27 of Dan 9. This gap is verse 26. Putting these pieces together you can see the complete picture for this section. It is helpful to keep in mind that the church appeared miraculously in Acts 2 and will disappear (VERY SOON!!) also miraculously through the rapture (1Thes 4:16, 17; 1Cor 15:52), this is why Paul in 1Thes 4:18 says: “comfort one another with these words”, these are good news for the church!! In these Eschatological topics, you have to increase the resolution of your magnifying glass, otherwise you will miss what the Bible is showing us. This is the reason why the Lord Jesus Himself said Mt 5:17,18. W. Lee in his Life Studies teaches to focus on “main points only”, but Mt 5:17,18 says exactly the opposite. Going back to Rev 12:1-5, verse 1 is explained for us by Jacob in Gen 37:9-11, confirming again that the woman is Israel. Further confirmation that the woman is Israel and NOT the church: Micah 4:9; 5:2; Isa 9:6; Gal 3:16; Jer 31:31; Gen 3:15 (the beginning). Please read carefully each one of the references. Another helpful thing to be aware when studying the book of Revelation, is to realize the “heptadic structure” For the 7 seals, in between the 6th and the 7th seal there is an insertion which is chp 7. For the 7 trumpets, in between the 6th and the 7th trumpets there is an insertion which are chps 10-14. For the 7 bowls, in between the 6th and the 7th bowls there is an insertion which is chp 16. That means that Rev 12 is an insertion in the sequence of events happening in the book of Revelation (related to timeline). Finally, a little historical background. The confusion of trying to make the woman, the church in Rev 12; comes from Origen: he started with allegorical interpretations. Then Augustine: he developed Amillennial Eschatology. Then the Medieval church with the quest for power, this led to the Holocaust in Germany and it will happen again in the Great Tribulation. Interesting, several years ago, Rev 12 is what triggered my search for the Truth including several theologians in addition to the teachings of W. Nee and W. Lee; since both teachings were contradicting each other. Here is the portion of my testimony: I finished reading all the conclusion messages and other books of W. Lee; since I needed to continue studying, I continued with the collected works of W. Nee. Interestingly, I started to see differences in between W. Nee's and W. Lee's ministry. Additionally, since we live in these "last years" or apocalyptic age, I started to study Eschatology or the study of the "end times" ( 33% of the Bible is Prophecy and I knew almost nothing!). It became even more interesting when I was studying Rev 12:1-5 about the great sign of the woman in heaven... W. Lee says that the woman is the church (which is wrong), and W. Nee says the woman is Israel (which is correct). These are two different interpretations, so I wanted to find out which interpretation was correct, according to the whole Bible. (for the rest of my testimony you can see my original post). I hope this explanation helps some. The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT to blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11). |
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07-06-2017, 06:56 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Israeology
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Unreg, Thanks for your post. I'm going to respond in three parts. Otherwise a single post to cover different lines of thought will become too unwieldy. The three parts will be Israelology, interpretation of Revelation 12, and what Witness Lee actually taught concerning Israel. A fourth part concerning "allegory" has already been addressed in post #14. If you care to respond to that then please do so otherwise it stands as is. Israelology: you have made the point several times that "83% of the Bible is related to Israel". At first I thought this was just a statistic you found interesting but since you are repeating it and placing so much value on it I see that it is central to your belief system. Let's have a closer look at that. No matter how you calculate the 83% the way that you use it is a fallacy in argumentation. It is an Argumentum Ad Numerum and like the Tiny Percentage Fallacy that states "an action that is quite significant in and of itself somehow becomes insignificant simply because it's a tiny percentage of something much larger." Your argument is a Large Percentage Fallacy. By frequently referring to "83% of the Bible is about Israel" you are inflating it's significance based on statistics. For example, the word "law" is mentioned over twice as many times as the word "grace" in the Bible. What does that tell you? Nothing of significance because an argument needs to pivot on something that is relevant not on statistics or numbers. Secondly, the church was the mystery hid from ages. Colossians 1:26 says "the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints". There would be less references in the Bible about the church for that reason alone. Is the church any less significant to God or to us if it were mentioned only 17% of the time in the Bible? Of course not. I agree on the points you made on how to approach the Bible through prayer study and multiple references. Yet, I think you miss something that is also extremely important. We should not come to the Bible with filters on our glasses. When you approach the Bible thinking that "83% of the Bible is about Israel" you will be looking for confirmation in all that you read. That will cause a bias in your understanding. I believe that you are reading into the scriptures references to Israel any and every chance you get. By taking that approach you will get to 83% whether it is really there or not because your mind directs you to confirm it. If you believe Israel is the dominant topic in the thought of God, and therefore should be in ours, you should justify this based on the scripture not on statistics and numbers. Drake |
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07-06-2017, 10:50 PM
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Re: Israeology
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Answer: I keep repeating Israelology because you keep asking and I think you are not understanding. Remember the title of my post and the development of the points. Here I am repeating myself again, because you asked. Israelology: Making very simple math (there are more sophisticated detailed calculations, you should check them out). OT books 39: 59 % NT books 27: 41 % Total books 66: 100 % Since the NT has 27 books (41 % of the Bible) But, 58 % of the NT is from the OT. If you put together the 59 % of the OT and the 58 % of the OT that is in the NT (or the 58 % of the 41 %), you get approximately 83 %. You can see in every book of the NT, how many quotations are from the OT. After doing this exercise, we will realize why we need to be clear about the customs, habits, culture, practices, etc, etc, …. of Israel, so we can understand correctly the OT and with that correct understanding of the OT, we can understand correctly the NT. If we “ignore Israelology” our understanding of the Scriptures will be wrong. The whole Bible is deliberately engineered and perfectly designed by God as a UNIT. Remember the 66 books constitute the Bible. The point here is that we should be AWARE of the big role that Israel plays (Rom 9:4; Eph 2:11, 12) in the Bible, why? Because, this very point (absence of Israelology), is one of the reasons why W. Lee’s teachings have errors. W. Lee, applies to the church what is for Israel and also freely allegorizes the Scriptures. It is not a matter to try to say who is more important? Israel or the church? Similarly, Eschatology is 33 % of the Bible. Under W. Lee’s teaching I barely knew Eschatology because he did not teach much, and the little that I knew, all of it was wrong. Then the Bible also has Ecclesiology, and W. Lee’s Ecclesiology also is wrong, because he ignores Israelology and his Eschatology is wrong. All we have to do is to “honor and follow” what the Bible is showing to us. For this, we need to get very familiar with the text, context, structure, where different topics or words are mentioned, recognize what is a parable, a type, an allegory, a pun, a figure of speech (there are over 200 in the Bible), a simile, a metaphor, an analogy, an idiom (which there are many in the Jewish culture used in the Bible), a hypocatastasis, etc., etc., etc., …. There are over 200 in the Bible. If you read Rom 9, 10, 11; you will see how Israel and the church are related. By the way, the one (Paul, THE expert of Ecclesiology) who wrote about the church (Eph 3:3,4); is the same one who wrote 3 chapters (9-11) about Israel in Romans. Israel and the church have different roles in God’s plan (please read Rom 9, 10, 11). It is not a matter to try to say who is more important. But to understand what the Bible is telling us according to the whole counsel of God (Rev 1:1; 19:10; Jn 5:39; Ps 40:7; Mt 5:17, 18; Rom 15:4; Acts 20:27). By the way, Israel and the church belong to God, but please understand, their roles are different. It will be very helpful for yourself, if you check with some “respected” theologians this matter of “Israelology”. I did not come up on my own about this topic. I was ignorant in this respect (because I was studying ONLY W. Lee’s teachings), but thanks to God’s Mercy and Compassion I got to learn some and I am still learning. The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT to blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11). You agree with the above paragraph about being the proper way to study, but in W. Lee’s group most of them when reading or studying the Bible, the first thing they do, is to look at what the footnotes are saying and even many of their leading ones, if there is a verse without a footnote, they say: “I cannot comment on this verse because there is no footnote”. Again, I am not trying to convince you. All I want to do is to point out some things and show “why” I am saying what I am saying according to the Scriptures. Now everyone should do their homework and come to their own conclusions. Otherwise we will fall “again” in the same deception of W. Lee’s teaching and practices, where only one person knows everything and everyone follows blindly, and only they know everything, and only they are correct. This is all I can do for you at this point, again I am not trying to convince you, I am not claiming I know everything, you don’t have to believe what I say. You make your own conclusions. |
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07-06-2017, 11:10 PM
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2
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Re: Israeology
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My user name is : JesusLover. Hopefully this will make things easier. Answer: I keep repeating Israelology because you keep asking and I think you are not understanding. Remember the title of my post and the development of the points. Here I am repeating myself again, because you asked. Israelology: Making very simple math (there are more sophisticated detailed calculations, you should check them out). OT books 39: 59 % NT books 27: 41 % Total books 66: 100 % [COLOR=black]Since the NT has 27 books (41 % of the Bible) [COLOR] But, 58 % of the NT is from the OT. If you put together the 59 % of the OT and the 58 % of the OT that is in the NT (or the 58 % of the 41 %), you get approximately 83 %. You can see in every book of the NT, how many quotations are from the OT. After doing this exercise, we will realize why we need to be clear about the customs, habits, culture, practices, etc, etc, …. of Israel, so we can understand correctly the OT and with that correct understanding of the OT, we can understand correctly the NT. If we “ignore Israelology” our understanding of the Scriptures will be wrong. The whole Bible is deliberately engineered and perfectly designed by God as a UNIT. Remember the 66 books constitute the Bible. The point here is that we should be AWARE of the big role that Israel plays (Rom 9:4; Eph 2:11, 12) in the Bible, why? Because, this very point (absence of Israelology), is one of the reasons why W. Lee’s teachings have errors. W. Lee, applies to the church what is for Israel and also freely allegorizes the Scriptures. It is not a matter to try to say who is more important? Israel or the church? Similarly, Eschatology is 33 % of the Bible. Under W. Lee’s teaching I barely knew Eschatology because he did not teach much, and the little that I knew, all of it was wrong. Then the Bible also has Ecclesiology, and W. Lee’s Ecclesiology also is wrong, because he ignores Israelology and his Eschatology is wrong. All we have to do is to “honor and follow” what the Bible is showing to us. For this, we need to get very familiar with the text, context, structure, where different topics or words are mentioned, recognize what is a parable, a type, an allegory, a pun, a figure of speech (there are over 200 in the Bible), a simile, a metaphor, an analogy, an idiom (which there are many in the Jewish culture used in the Bible), a hypocatastasis, etc., etc., etc., …. There are over 200 in the Bible. If you read Rom 9, 10, 11; you will see how Israel and the church are related. By the way, the one (Paul, THE expert of Ecclesiology) who wrote about the church (Eph 3:3,4); is the same one who wrote 3 chapters (9-11) about Israel in Romans. Israel and the church have different roles in God’s plan (please read Rom 9, 10, 11). It is not a matter to try to say who is more important. But to understand what the Bible is telling us according to the whole counsel of God (Rev 1:1; 19:10; Jn 5:39; Ps 40:7; Mt 5:17, 18; Rom 15:4; Acts 20:27). By the way, Israel and the church belong to God, but please understand, their roles are different. It will be very helpful for yourself, if you check with some “respected” theologians this matter of “Israelology”. I did not come up on my own about this topic. I was ignorant in this respect (because I was studying ONLY W. Lee’s teachings), but thanks to God’s Mercy and Compassion I got to learn some and I am still learning. The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT to blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11). You agree with the above paragraph about being the proper way to study, but in W. Lee’s group most of them when reading or studying the Bible, the first thing they do, is to look at what the footnotes are saying and even many of their leading ones, if there is a verse without a footnote, they say: “I cannot comment on this verse because there is no footnote”. Again, I am not trying to convince you. All I want to do is to point out some things and show “why” I am saying what I am saying according to the Scriptures. Now everyone should do their homework and come to their own conclusions. Otherwise we will fall “again” in the same deception of W. Lee’s teaching and practices, where only one person knows everything and everyone follows blindly, and only they know everything, and only they are correct. This is all I can do for you at this point, again I am not trying to convince you, I am not claiming I know everything, you don’t have to believe what I say. You make your own conclusions. |
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07-07-2017, 01:55 AM
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,632
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Re: Israeology
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They couldn't deny that the point I had made was from the "clear words" in front of us, as Witness Lee used to say. But Lee hadn't made my point, so they couldn't receive it. But they couldn't argue against it, either. So they sat there. Eventually one of us spoke on something else, and the conversation continued. But it was rather subdued after that. The "mutuality" had been damaged. I was apparently an independent thinker, and not a program zealot. What was strange to me, was that my point wasn't on something obscure, but was directly related to the very person of Christ and His journey on earth, and His heart of love, and subsequent return in triumph and glory to the Father's house. But Lee hadn't commented, so neither could we. It could hardly have been any more wonderful, but to them it couldn't exist. (Even though they couldn't say that it didn't exist).
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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07-07-2017, 07:08 AM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,075
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
Jesus Lover "Finally I took the time to register. My user name is : JesusLover. Hopefully this will make things easier."
It should. Thanks. Concerning Israel = 83%.... this is totally irrelevant. It is a fallacy argument. You have not established that doing a word or subject count as a valid method of interpretation of the Bible.It is however an Argumentum Ad Numerum or a Large Percentage Fallacy and neither are valid. There are twice as many references to law in the Bible than there is to grace. And that means nothing either. The church was hid from ages so of course there is going to be less material on that topic in the Bible. Is Israel an important topic in the Bible? Yes of course! But you are trying to convince the reader that Israel is the dominant topic in the Bible because it is mentioned more frequently according to your math. JesusLover " You can see in every book of the NT, how many quotations are from the OT. After doing this exercise, we will realize why we need to be clear about the customs, habits, culture, practices, etc, etc, …. of Israel, so we can understand correctly the OT and with that correct understanding of the OT, we can understand correctly the NT. If we “ignore Israelology” our understanding of the Scriptures will be wrong. The whole Bible is deliberately engineered and perfectly designed by God as a UNIT. Remember the 66 books constitute the Bible. Thanks for the reminder that there are 66 books in the Bible.  I probably agree with most of what you are saying in the above. I will leave it to you to explain to the group which customs, habits, culture, practices of Israel we need to understand to correctly understand the New Testament at the appropriate moments. However, I and certainly Witness Lee never ignored Israel. It's one thing to ignore Israel in the Bible it's quite another to place it as the most important topic of the Bible. You apparently are doing the latter. JesusLover "The point here is that we should be AWARE of the big role that Israel plays (Rom 9:4; Eph 2:11, 12) in the Bible, why? Because, this very point (absence of Israelology), is one of the reasons why W. Lee’s teachings have errors. W. Lee, applies to the church what is for Israel..." Ok, we are AWARE. Please be more specific about the absence of Israel in Witness Lee's teachings that have errors. I looked at the verses you cited above in Romans and Ephesians and Witness Lee addresses the points about Israel in their proper context. When you say that Witness Lee applies to the church what is for Israel what exactly are you referring to? Chapter and verse please. JesusLover " By the way, Israel and the church belong to God, but please understand, their roles are different. It will be very helpful for yourself, if you check with some “respected” theologians this matter of “Israelology”. I did not come up on my own about this topic" Yes, the "roles" of the Church and Israel are different and their times are apportioned by God. The times apportioned for Israel are articulated in the framework of Daniels 70 weeks. This is all covered in Witness Lee's teachings . If you think he left something out or misapplied something to the church that exclusively belongs to Israel then you will need to point that out specifically instead of just using generalizations . And yes I have read some of Fruchtenbaum's material and listened to him speak. JesusLover "Again, I am not trying to convince you. All I want to do is to point out some things and show “why” I am saying what I am saying according to the Scriptures" You have not yet shown specific examples from the Scriptures showing the errors in the writings of Witness Lee concerning Israel. If you have specific examples where Witness Lee appropriated things that were just for Israel and applied them to the church then feel free to list them here now. What are they? Drake |
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07-08-2017, 05:09 PM
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#9 | |
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
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I can see that you are not understanding about Israelology. The exercise of showing you the 83% is a very, very small part of the subject. You did not know where the 83% came from, so I showed you in a simple way. But that is only showing you how much (83%) of the “Biblical text” talks about Israel. Please understand that Israelology is not a “percentage”. Moving forward to the “real” subject. If you remember the “title” of my post is: “MAJOR” Errors of W. Lee’s Teaching. That means that Israelology is a “major” topic that W. Lee did not consider in his Life Studies. He spoke about Israel, but he applied to the church what is for Israel with the wrong interpretation. Pick up any Life Study of the Old Testament and you will see that he ends up sharing from the New Testament bringing the “church in”. I already mentioned, I mention again: “All we have to do is to “honor and follow” what the Bible is showing to us. For this, we need to get very familiar with the text, context, structure, where different topics or words are mentioned, recognize what is a parable, a type, an allegory, a pun, a figure of speech (there are over 200 in the Bible), a simile, a metaphor, an analogy, an idiom (which there are many in the Jewish culture used in the Bible), a hypocatastasis, etc., etc., etc., …. There are over 200 in the Bible.” This means if you are studying the Old Testament, you have to be very familiar with the Jewish culture, which W. Lee, was not familiar. Instead, he made up his own allegory, besides that, he put an allegory where there is no allegory. Here there are two specific examples: I already mentioned about this, I am going to mention again: I would like to point out a few wrong allegories that W. Lee makes in his teaching: *Boiling a young goat in the mother’s milk (Exo 23:19; 34:26; Deut 14:21) 19“You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. “You are not to boil a young goat in the milk of its mother”. W. Lee’s explanation in his Life Study is: “Now we come to the last condition, a condition that may seem very strange: “You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk” (v. 26b). You may be surprised at the significance of the requirement not to boil a kid in its mother’s milk. This requirement indicates or typifies that we should not seethe young believers with the milk of the word; that is, we should not “boil” them with the word of life that is for nourishment (1 Pet. 2:2). In ancient times some people probably did have the practice of boiling a kid in its mother’s milk. This may have been regarded as a delicious dish. As we have indicated, we should not use the milk of the word to seethe young believers. This is to use the milk of the word, which is for life- nourishment, to kill the young ones. The point here is that the milk of the Word of God is for nourishment”(1Pet 2:2; Heb 5:12, 13; 1Cor 3:2). W. Lee in his explanation above gives his “free allegory” made up by himself, additionally he gives references (1Pet 2:2; Heb 5:12, 13; 1Cor 3:2) that have NOTHING to do with the subject verses (Exo 23:19; 34:26; Deut 14:21), except ALL these verses have the word “milk” in common. The “correct” Biblical way to understand “Boiling a young goat in the mother’s milk” is that it refers to the superstitious custom of the Canaanites at harvest time in which a young goat was boiled in its mother’s milk as a charm to increase the fruitfulness of their crops. God didn’t want His people copying the pagan fertility rituals instead of trusting Him to bless their harvest. This commandment is the basis for the present Jewish custom of not mixing milk products with meat. This is according to Israelology, Jewish culture, because the Bible is a Judeo-Christian book. Another example: *Eating poisonous gourds (2King 4:38-41) 38When Elisha returned to Gilgal, there was a famine in the land. As the sons of the prophets were sitting before him, he said to his servant, “Put on the large pot and boil stew for the sons of the prophets.” 39Then one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine and gathered from it his lap full of wild gourds, and came and sliced them into the pot of stew, for they did not know what they were. 40So they poured it out for the men to eat. And as they were eating of the stew, they cried out and said, “O man of God, there is death in the pot.” And they were unable to eat. 41But he said, “Now bring meal.” He threw it into the pot and said, “Pour it out for the people that they may eat.” Then there was no harm in the pot. Do you think this portion of the Word says that many of today's Christian writings are "poisonous gourds"? The following is what Witness Lee says in his Life Study about this: Many of the teachings in today's Christianity are "poisonous gourds." Some Christian books are good, but many are not pure. We have recommended certain writings by Andrew Murray, Madame Guyon, Brother Lawrence, and others. We have especially recommended Andrew Murray's masterpiece The Spirit of Christ, as well as God's Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough and Life on the Highest Plane by Ruth Paxton. Among us we also have the ministry of Brother Nee. Brother Nee's ministry was rejected by the Western missionaries in his youth, but today his ministry is known by seeking Christians throughout the world. By the Lord's mercy and grace, in the last seventy years nearly all the crucial, important revelations of the Bible have been covered in Watchman Nee's ministry and my ministry. I would urge you to pay attention to these pure and healthy things and not waste your time collecting "poisonous gourds". Again, W. Lee in his explanation above gives his “free allegory” made up by himself, and he recommends himself by saying that “in the last seventy years nearly ALL the crucial, important revelations of the Bible have been covered in Watchman Nee's ministry and my ministry”. The “correct” Biblical way to understand this section (2King 4:38-41), is to realize that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. At this point I would like to share with you a “golden rule of interpretation” a dear brother said: “When plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up in nonsense”. Probably you don’t notice, but we are going in vicious circles, and I can understand, because the topics that we are talking about are not big topics in the Bible, but “huge”; Israelology, Eschatology and Ecclesiology. In my case after studying for several years, I realized these big topics and I compared to what I was taught by W. Lee and I could see the “Major Errors of his teaching”. Here so far, we are “trying to start” talking about Israelology. Actually, you brought up this point. You said that you read some of Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum. I would suggest to slow down and if you could take your time to read about Israelology since it is such a big topic and fundamental. Because so far, mainly what I have been doing is to point out the topics, and saying: “do your homework”. I wish I could, but I don’t have the time to write everything, already very good respected theologians have done this. Because of the absence of Israelology in W. Lee’s teaching I said: “the Bible has 66 Books”, because he emphasizes the New Testament, even his “great book” is called: “God’s New Testament Economy”. Why? Because W. Lee follows the “Dispensationalists” who mainly focus in the age or dispensation where they are at. For W. Lee, he mainly focused in the “church age”, and he made the church the main thing. Emphasizing too much in only in the church age. The Bible shows the dispensation of: the law, grace, after the church is raptured to the air (1 Thes 4:17) comes the last week of Dan 9:27 which are 7 years to deal ONLY with Israel on the earth, then comes the dispensation of the Millennium. But W. Lee makes the main thing the church age. Even there are some hyper-dispensationalist saying that we, the believers of the church age, have to read only Paul’s epistles, because only Paul’s epistles are written to the church and the rest of the Bible is for Israel. W. Lee’s teaching is not as severe as hyper-dispensationalism, but it has some tendency and he follows dispensationalism. Probably this is the way to go, you read by yourself about Israelology, first hand, and get the whole picture. For now, I would like to show you some bits and pieces of Israelology by the author you mentioned (Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum). ISRAELOLOGY Part 1 of 6 by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum INTRODUCTION The issue of Israel is one of the major points of division in evangelical theology today. This is true both among Arminians and Calvinists. An evangelical theologian's view of Israel will determine whether he is a Covenant Theologian or a Dispensationalist. It will also determine what kind of Covenant Theologian he is: postmillennial, amillennial, or premillennial. The question of Israel is central for a proper Systematic Theology. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, which contains the first Systematic Theology in Church history, expounds on Israel in the center of his epistle devoting three full chapters (9-11) out of sixteen to this topic. Yet, while there are many Systematic Theologies today that have systematized all areas of biblical truth, none thus far has developed an Israelology as part of their system. These articles will survey what the concerns of an Israelology would be.1 THE PLACE OF ISRAELOLOGY IN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY In every work of Systematic Theology, Israelology is found missing as a major division. In all Systematic Theologies, what exists of Israelology will only be partially developed. In Covenant Theology, the development will be minimal. In Dispensationalism, Israelology is only fully developed in its future aspect, not in its past and present aspects. Logically, Israelology must come just before Ecclesiology [the study the Church] and follow the same development. Both are a people of God but, historically, Israel precedes the Church. As Ecclesiology has been developed in its past, present, and future aspects, so must Israelology be. Only then will Systematic Theology be truly complete. Israel and the Tribulation The Purposes of the Tribulation Two of the purposes for the Tribulation relate to Israelology. The first purpose is to bring about a worldwide preaching of the Gospel (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 7:1–17). Revelation 7:1–8 gives God’s means for accomplishing the Tribulation’s second purpose. Verses 1–3, commands the four angels commissioned to bring judgment on the earth to wait until a specific number of servants are sealed. It protects them so that they cannot be harmed, either by the judgments poured out by God or by the persecutions of believers. They are also sealed for service, for they are the ones who will proclaim the message of the Gospel in the Tribulation. Verse 4 clearly identifies those sealed as 144,000 Jews.3 Their preaching the Gospel fulfills Matthew 24:14’s prophecy: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.4 Revelation 7:9–17 gives the results of their ministry. In verses 9– 10, John saw a multitude of Gentiles from every nationality and language group standing before God’s throne. Verse 9 says that the salvation of these myriads of Gentiles comes after these things (the sealing of the 144,000 Jews). Their salvation is the 3 Revelation 7:5–8 clearly identifies the 144,000 as Jews. It lists twelve tribes and specifies that 12,000 are chosen from each listed tribe. Such careful delineation indicates that none are Gentiles. Despite much speculation to the contrary, no exegetical or theological basis exists to support Covenant Theology’s view that they symbolize the Church. 4 Unless otherwise noted, all Scripture citations are taken from the American Standard Version (ASV), 1901. effect of the 144,000’s ministry. After describing the worship of the One on the throne (vv. 11–12), the text proceeds to identify these Gentiles who are around the throne (vv. 13–14) as those who have come out of the Great Tribulation. They are saved Gentiles, for they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Due to the massive persecution that these Tribulation saints have suffered, this passage concludes with a description of the comfort they now enjoy in the presence of God (vv. 15–17). The Tribulation’s second purpose is to break the power or the will of the Jewish nation. Daniel 11:36–12:4 envisions the conditions that will face the prophet’s people (Israel) during the Tribulation. Daniel 12:5–7 asks how long it will continue. It will last for three-and-a-half years. This passage then states a goal of the Tribulation: to break the power or the will of the Jewish nation. The Tribulation will not end until God brings about a national regeneration by breaking the will of the holy people. Ezekiel 20:33–38 reveals (through a simile with the Exodus from Egypt) how God will bring about regeneration. After God gathers the Jews from around the world, He will initiate a period of judgment (i.e., the Tribulation). This judgment will purge the rebels from among the Jewish people; the remainder will turn to the Messiah. Only then will He allow the whole nation, a regenerate nation, to enter millennial Israel under King Messiah. In Mt 24:14, says: “this gospel of the kingdom” W. Lee teaches in his footnote 14’one, “that includes the gospel of grace (Act 20:24)”. Verse 14, is NOT saying anything about the “gospel of grace”, plus he adds Act 20:24, which has nothing to do with Mt 24:14. Also in his chart in Mt 5 with the circles: “Chart showing the difference between the kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God”, W. Lee, makes the church, part of the kingdom of the heavens, which is wrong. The kingdom of the heavens is the Millennium or the Davidic kingdom (Lk 1:32, 33; Mt 19:28). Please read these verses because the throne of David is ONLY during the Millennium and NOT during the church age. The same situation in Mt 16:18, 19. In verse 19 says: “the kingdom of the heavens” W. Lee’s footnote says: 19’two; “kingdom of the heavens is used here interchangeably for church”, which again, is wrong. Then W. Lee connects these verses with Rom 14:7 saying: “the genuine church is the kingdom of the heavens in this age”. Rom 14:17, is NOT talking about the “kingdom of the heavens” (which by the way is the Millennium), the whole chapter Rom 14, is talking about how we should receive other believers, please read the CONTEXT. All the confusion that W. Lee has in his teaching, is because he does NOT properly differentiate Israel from the church according to the Bible, text and context. Israelology is absent of his teaching. You asked: which customs, habits, culture, practices of Israel we need to understand to correctly understand the New Testament at the appropriate moments? Remember, if you don’t understand the Old Testament properly, your understanding of the New Testament will be incorrect. The Bible is skillfully “designed by God” as a UNIT, meaning what comes “later” depends on what is “before”. I’ll let the experts with ALL the verses answer that question. As I mentioned, I would like to write these things, but practically I don’t have the time to re-write all the homework I did in these last few years. The Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb Dr. Renald Showers Introduction Where will the Church be during the 70th week of Daniel 9 (the last seven years prior to the Second Coming of Christ, which has been popularly called the Tribulation period)? Several things presented in the Book of the Revelation indicate that the Church will be in Heaven with Christ during that time period. One of those things is the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb. The Reference to the Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb In Revelation 19:7 John recorded part of the loud proclamation of a great multitude in Heaven (vv. 1, 6): "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Concerning the wife of the Lamb, John continued to write, "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they who are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (vv. 8-9). A study of Revelation 5-7; 12-15; 17; 19; 21-22 clearly indicates that the Lamb is Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords who shed His blood to cleanse sinners. Romans 7:4, 2 Corinthians 11:2; and Ephesians 5:22-23 indicates that the wife of the Lamb is the Church. In light of these identifications, it is evident that Revelation 19:7-9 is referring to the marriage of Jesus Christ to the Church and the subsequent marriage supper. Questions and Views Related to the Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb Revelation 19:7-9 prompts two major questions: When and where will the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb take place? At least three answers to these questions have been proposed. First, the marriage will occur when the Church is raptured to meet Christ in the air at His Second Coming, and the marriage supper will take place on earth during the Millennium. Second, the marriage will occur in Heaven when the Church is raptured before the 70th week (Tribulation period), and the marriage supper will take place on earth during the Millennium. Third, the marriage will occur in Heaven when the Church is raptured before the 70th week (Tribulation period), and the marriage supper will take place in Heaven during the seven years of the 70th week. The Relationship of Revelation 19:7-9 to Jewish Marriage Customs There are good reasons for being convinced of the third view; but before those reasons are examined, two things should be noted. First, the terms "marriage" and "marriage supper" in Revelation 19 are related to Jewish marriage customs in Bible times. Second, Jewish marriage customs in Bible times involved three major steps. The first step was betrothal, the establishment of the marriage covenant that bound the man and woman together as husband and wife (Mal. 2:14; Mt. 1:18-19). The second step was the taking of the bride or wife by the groom from her house to his father's house (Mt. 25:1-8). "The essence of the marriage ceremony or festivities was the taking of the bride from her father's house and bringing her to the house of the bridegroom or his father." This taking of the bride was usually done at night approximately one year after the betrothal. It involved the consummation of the marriage through physical union of the bride and groom on the first night at the groom's father's house. Since this second step was the essence of the marriage ceremony, it was regarded as the wedding or marriage (Mt. 22:2-13; 25:10). Thus, it is this second step that corresponds to the expression "marriage of the Lamb" in Revelation 19:7. The third step was the marriage supper or feast to which guests had already been called and assembled. Once the marriage had been consummated by the bride and groom, the wedding guests would feast and make merry for seven days. Thus, the marriage supper lasted for one week (Gen. 29:21-23, 27-28; Jud. 14:1-2, 10-12, 17), and it corresponds to the expression "marriage supper of the Lamb" in Revelation 19:9. In light of what has been seen, the following conclusions can be drawn concerning the relationship of the three steps of Jewish marriage customs to the marriage of Christ and the Church. First, the betrothal of Christ and the Church is taking place during the present Church age as people trust Jesus Christ to be their Savior (2 Cor. 11:2). Second, in the future Christ will take His bride, the Church, from this world to His Father's house in Heaven when He comes to rapture it (Jn. 14:2-3; 1 Th. 4:13-18). This will be the "marriage of the Lamb." Third, after the Rapture of the Church, the "marriage supper of the Lamb" will take place with the wedding guests who will have already been called and assembled. Evidences for the Third View Earlier it was stated that there are good reasons for believing that the marriage of the Lamb will occur in Heaven when the Church is raptured before the 70th week (Tribulation period) and that the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place in Heaven during the seven years of the 70th week. Those reasons will now be examined. First, normally the wedding or marriage (the second step) did not take place at the home of the bride. "One must remember that the established custom was to hold the wedding in the house of the bridegroom or his parents. The bridegroom fetches the bride and brings her to his house, where the bridal table and chamber are ready. In harmony with this custom, Christ indicated that after preparing living accommodations for His bride in His Father's house in Heaven, He would come from there again and receive His bride unto Himself so that His bride could be where He is (in His Father's house in Heaven) [Jn. 14:2-3]. Christ did not say that He would come and join His bride so that He could be where she is (on the earth). This established marriage custom and Christ's teaching in harmony with it indicate that the Rapture of the Church and marriage of the Lamb will not take place at the Second Coming of Christ, because at His Second Coming Christ will not return to His Father's house in Heaven. Instead, He will come to the earth. Thus, the Rapture of the Church and marriage of the Lamb must take place sometime before the Second Coming of Christ, and the Rapture of the Church and marriage of the Lamb must be separate events from the Second Coming. Second, in Bible times the marriage was a joyous, festive occasion. The taking of the bride by the groom was characterized by mirth and gladness (Jer. 7:34; 16:9; 25:10; 33:11). Jesus indicated the same thing when He emphasized that it is impossible to mix the joy of a wedding with the mourning of a funeral (Mt.9:15; Mk. 2:19; Lk. 5:34). It should be noted that the mood at the Second Coming will be just the opposite of the joyous, festive mood of the marriage. The description of the Second Coming in Revelation 19 portrays Christ, not as a happy groom coming with joyful companions to take His bride to His Father's house, but as a terrifying warrior-king coming with armies from Heaven to administer judgment and death upon rebellious humanity. The marriage customs of Bible times provided a festive marriage supper for wedding guests, but the Second Coming will provide a radically different kind of supper-a funeral supper of dead flesh for the fowl of the earth (Rev. 19:17-18, 21). Since Jesus taught that it is impossible to mix the joy of a wedding with the mourning of a funeral, and since the Second Coming will produce death for a great mass of humanity, it must be concluded that the marriage of the Lamb will not occur at the Second Coming of Christ. The Rapture of the Church and marriage of the Lamb must take place sometime before the Second Coming and must be events separate from the Second Coming. Third, it was customary for the marriage supper to be held at the home of the groom or his parents, not at the home of the bride. One writer declares, "The bridegroom escorted the whole wedding party, now including the bride and her companions (Ps. 45:14b), to his own or his father's house for the 'marriage supper' (Rev. 19:9)....The wedding feast ...was normally given by the father of the groom." Matthew 22:1-4 indicates the same thing. Concerning the location of the marriage supper, another writer states, "The older tradition points to the house of the groom's parents as the proper place." In harmony with this custom, the marriage supper of the Lamb should take place at Christ's Father's house in Heaven, not at His bride's dwelling place on earth. This militates against an earthly marriage supper of the Lamb. Fourth, the marriage supper began on the same night that the groom took his bride to his father's house and consummated their marriage through physical union. After the marriage was consummated, the groom announced the consummation to his friend standing outside the bridal chamber (Ps. 19:5; Jn. 3:29), and the announcement was then delivered to the wedding guests who had already assembled at the groom's father's house. Upon receiving this news, the guests began to feast and make merry. Thus, the marriage supper began very shortly after the groom brought his bride to his father's house. In harmony with this custom, the marriage supper of the Lamb must begin very shortly after Christ takes His bride, the Church, to His Father's house in Heaven at the time of the Rapture. Since, as noted earlier, the Rapture of the Church and the marriage of the Lamb will take place sometime before the Second Coming, and since the Millennium will begin after the Second Coming (Rev. 19-20), it appears that the Millennium will not begin very shortly after Christ takes His bride, the Church, to His Father's house in Heaven at the time of the Rapture, and the marriage supper of the Lamb will not, therefore, take place during the Millennium. Fifth, the Old Testament teaches that during the Millennium there will be another marriage supper, different from the marriage supper of the Lamb. This millennial marriage supper will be associated with the second marriage of God and the nation of Israel. At the beginning of Isaiah 25:6ff, a passage describing the blessings of the future Millennium, Isaiah declared, "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees." The word for "feast" in verse 6 is the same as that used for the wedding feast in Judges 14:10, 12, 17. Isaiah's statement indicates that the wedding guests at this millennial marriage supper for God and Israel will be all the other people living in the world at that time. "Isaiah was speaking of a future time when (after God's worldwide judgment) His people in Israel and other nations will feast together in peace and prosperity. This is the 1,000 year reign of Christ." The background behind this millennial marriage feast is as follows: The Old Testament teaches that God betrothed Israel (bound the nation to Himself as His wife) through the Mosaic Covenant at Mount Sinai (Jer. 2:2; Ezek. 16:8), but Israel repeatedly broke the covenant through spiritual adultery (Jer. 3:1-3, 6-9, 20; Ezek. 16:32, 59; Hos. 1:2; 2:2, 5; 3:1; 4:12, 18; 5:3-4; 6:7, 10; 7:4; 8:1; 9:1). God divorced Israel, but not permanently (Isa. 50:1; 54:7-8; Jer. 3:12). He did not regard the divorce as a termination of His marriage with the nation (Jer. 3:14; cp. v. 8). God has been judging the nation for its adultery (Ezek. 16:38). Through this judgment He will stop Israel's unfaithfulness, calm His fury, and lose His jealousy and anger (Ezek. 16:41-42). When Israel repents in the future at the Second Coming of Christ (Hos. 3:5; 5:15-6:1; Zech. 12:10-14), God will cleanse the nation (Zech. 13:1), love it freely (Hos. 14:1-4), and betroth it to Himself forever (Hos. 2:19-20) through the establishment of an everlasting covenant (Isa. 55:3; 61:8; Jer. 32:40; 50:4-5; Ezek. 16:60-62; 37:21-28). Israel will be adorned like a bride (Isa. 61:10); God will delight in and rejoice over Jerusalem as a groom rejoices over his bride; and the land of Israel will be married to God (Isa. 62:1-5). Thus, at the Second Coming God and Israel will go through betrothal and marriage a second time, and then their marriage supper will take place during the Millennium after the Second Coming. The following quotation relates the rabbinical view of this Old Testament teaching. But the final renewal of the covenant between God and the people, intimated by the prophet, was expected by the Rabbis in the days of the Messiah. Thus we often find the view that in these days there will take place the true marriage feast. In this connection the present age is that of engagement, the seven years of Gog will be the period immediately prior to the marriage, the marriage itself will dawn with the resurrection and the great marriage feast will be eaten in the future world. This future marriage of God and the marriage of the Lamb have two different brides. The marriage of God has the nation of Israel as its bride. As noted earlier, the marriage of the Lamb has the Church as its bride. It appears that these marriages also have two different grooms. As noted earlier, the marriage of the Lamb has Christ (the Messiah) as its groom. By contrast, one scholar asserts, "But nowhere in the OT is the Messiah presented as a bridegroom." This means, then, that the future marriage of God to Israel presented in the Old Testament has God the Father, not the Messiah, as its groom. Since these marriages have two different brides and grooms, it must be concluded that the future marriage of God to Israel and the marriage of the Lamb are two different marriages. Since these marriages are different, the marriage suppers associated with them must also be different, and it is very probable that these different suppers will take place at different times. Thus, since the marriage supper associated with the future marriage of God to Israel will take place during the Millennium, the marriage supper of the Lamb probably will not occur during the Millennium. Sixth, as noted earlier, it was customary for the wedding supper of Bible times to last for one week, or seven days. It is the conviction of this writer that, in relationship to the marriage supper of the Lamb, the seven years of the 70th week of Daniel 9 will correlate to that time period. According to this view, then, the Rapture of the Church and marriage of the Lamb will occur before the 70th week (Tribulation period), and the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place in Heaven during the 70th week. Concluding Considerations The conclusion drawn from all that has been seen concerning the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb is that the Church will be in Heaven with Christ, not on the earth, throughout the entire 70th week. If the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb are not to take place at the Second Coming and during the Millennium, why are they mentioned in Revelation 19 between the judgment of the great whore and the Second Coming of Christ? Two possible reasons are as follows: First, to draw a contrast between the great whore, with all her impure unions, and the bride of Christ, with her pure union with Christ; and second, to draw a contrast between the blessing of those called to the marriage supper of the Lamb and the judgment of rebels at the Second Coming of Christ. One side issue should be noted. According to Revelation 19:9, wedding guests will be called to the marriage supper of the Lamb, and those who are called will be blessed. Since wedding guests are not the bride, it must be concluded that the guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb will not be part of Christ's bride, the Church. But since the guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb will be blessed and will be in Heaven (since that is where the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place), they must be believers (cp. Rev. 20:6). The fact that the guests will be believers, but not part of the Church, forces one to conclude that not all believers of all ages of history belong to the Church. God has groups of believers distinct from the Church. The souls of Old Testament saints will already be assembled in Heaven when the Church arrives there at the time of the Rapture and marriage of the Lamb. Those Old Testament saints will be guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb. This article first appeared in June/July 1991 Israel My Glory. Used with permission. Dr. Showers presently is on the staff of the Church Ministries Division of the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc, and teaches in the Institute of Biblical Studies of that ministry. You can reach him via fax: 717-464-0333 -- or you may write 111 Susan Avenue Willow Street, PA 17584 Related to Rom 9:4, you said: “I looked at the verses you cited above in Romans and Ephesians and Witness Lee addresses the points about Israel in their proper context”. I don’t know where you looked at, because W. Lee practically says nothing about the real meaning of the verse. W. Lee says: “sonship, right of inheritance. And service, instituted according to the law of Moses”. We need to understand here that Paul is saying:” who are Israelites, to whom belongs the sonship” meaning, the sonship belongs to the Israelites. Then Eph. 2:11, 12. Again W. Lee in verse 11: explains the word circumcision and in verse 12: explains the word citizenship. Without explaining why Paul is saying that? What Paul is saying in Rom 9:4 and Eph 2:11,12; is that the sonship and the citizenship belong to Israel, not to the church. Then Paul continues (I already mention the need to study Rom 9-11) in Rom 11:20, 21; saying : 20Quite right, they (Israel) were broken off for their unbelief, but you (gentiles, church) stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches (Israel), He will not spare you (gentiles, church), either. Paul is saying that everything “originally” was given to Israel as God’s chosen people, but because of Israel’s unbelief, the church is getting the benefit of God’s blessings of sonship, citizenship for NOW, etc., etc.,… (please study the whole chapter Rom 11). Here Paul is showing us the difference and connection between Israel and the church. How the church is getting the benefit that it was originally for Israel, BUT only UNTILL the fullness of the gentiles (the church) comes in. See Rom 11:25. Meaning until the church is raptured, then God will deal with Israel (not the church) for the last week of Dan 9:27, especially the last 3.5 years (great tribulation). The church has a special position and function in God’s plan, even it is called the “hidden mystery” (Eph 3:9, Rom 16:25, 26). But not because the church has a special position and function in God’s plan, you will make the church the center of everything. These verses of Rom 16:25, 26 are connected to the parenthesis or gap of Dan 9:26. Again, see God’s plan in the “whole Bible” (66 books), not only in 27 books or 14 books; but 66 books. The WHOLE Bible is God’s plan. If you want to find out the errors of W. Lee’s teaching or anybody’s teaching, you have to compare them AGAINST OTHER’S sound teaching, otherwise you remain in the same vicious circle of comparing W. Lee’s teaching against W. Lee’s teaching. I guess this is Einstein’s quotation:” insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Please study Dan 9:24-27, the 70 weeks is related ONLY to Israel and Jerusalem. The church has nothing to do in those 70 weeks (please read those verses). W. Lee’s teaching says that the church goes through the great tribulation, except the overcomers. That interpretation, again, is wrong. Due to not knowing Israelology. I think for now it is a good stopping point, and as I mentioned earlier, please read and study what the experts say about Israelology, do your homework (it is a huge topic), and come to your own conclusions. There is much more… sometimes I don’t know where to start!!; but they say you can eat an elephant, one bite at the time. The Lord bless you, and remember, the point here is to see what the Bible is telling us. |
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07-07-2017, 09:53 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: Israeology
Quote:
Or is it all the verses where the Pharisees quoted OT laws about stoning sinners only to be rebuffed by Jesus. Once again, this does not tilt the NT towards an OT understanding, rather it tilts the Bible to seeing the OT through the eyes of Jesus. Or is it the reference to Jesus as the lamb of God. All of the verses that demonstrate that Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT promises. Once again, this doesn't tilt the Bible towards Israelogy, rather it shows the NT was a type and shadow of the coming Jesus and the Church. Your % of verses may be correct, but your interpretation of this tilting the understanding of the Bible to Israelogy and the OT is fatally flawed.
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They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God |
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07-07-2017, 01:32 PM
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#11 |
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Moderated Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
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Re: Major Errors of Witness Lee’s Teaching (Nothing against the “person”)
Hi JesusLover,
You say "The proper way to study the Bible and to avoid to be deceived by following the wrong teaching or interpretation is: First to have prayer and relationship with the Author (God) of the Bible (Jn 5:39,40), then we need to take notes as we read and study the Bible (God’s Word), lastly we can check with the commentaries of the theologians; NOT just ONE author, but 3 or 4. And try to understand why the interpretations differ. We need to do our homework and NOT to blindly believe the commentaries, learn from the Berean believers (Act 17:10,11)." In reading Ephesians 3, it seems the major thing on God's and the apostle Paul's heart, is not Israel, but the church. There is a lot I can find fault with in WL's ministry, but his tenacity to speak about the church was not one of them. Granted, the content he may have filled the church container with grew increasingly off key, but I would be hard pressed to find any commentator or preacher who cared as much about bringing out the scriptural grandness of the church, with a desire to see it in its fruition. Your studiousness is to be commended, but I don't see Israelology, nor eschatology as the primary Christian focus, but the church-we need the same heart as the apostle Paul! I would think You seem to dismiss the weightiness of the church in this age with its degradation. I, for one, don't want to relegate my Christian life to sitting in pews or chairs, being entertained, shaking a few hands, and talking about football scores, just because all churches have problems. The modern American "church" is pathetic. WL brought out so much concerning the church that most commentators pass over; we shouldn't throw it out just because he ended up corrupting the very thing he worked to build. I would think a clear understanding and practice of the church is needed before one can understand Israelology, not the other way around. If after 2000 years, we are left with the kind of church practice we see predominate in the US, I would say at the least, the average theologian and bible commentaries have failed miserably. When the local church morphed into LSM affiliates, may of us left, and left as well the whole concept of the church and the church practice in the hand of the charlatans. I think it's time for the "recovery" of the church! |
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07-08-2017, 05:59 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 2
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Re: Israeology
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Answer: If you do a little research (homework), you will see: For example: IF, Mt has 1400 verses in the whole book. And IF, there are 500 verses in Mt that are quotations from the Old Testament; for Mt would be: 36 % of the OT. Then, if you do the same thing for every book of the New Testament, you will find out that 58 % of the OT is in the NT. But again, I say to you what I said to Drake: I can see that you are not understanding about Israelology. The exercise of showing the 83% is a very, very small part of the subject. That is only showing you how much (83%) of the “Biblical text” talks about Israel. Please understand that Israelology is not a “percentage”. Moving forward to the “real” subject. If you remember the “title” of my post is: “MAJOR” Errors of W. Lee’s Teaching. That means that Israelology is a “major” topic that W. Lee did not consider in his Life Studies. He spoke about Israel, but he applied to the church what is for Israel with the wrong interpretation. Pick up any Life Study of the Old Testament and you will see that he ends up sharing from the New Testament bringing the “church in”. For you to have some idea of what Israelology is, I can show you what the experts have to say. Israelology is a huge topic in the Bible. Please read this little portion and then you can do your homework on your own and come to your own conclusions. You don’t have to believe anything I say, that is what Acts 17:11 is telling you. ISRAELOLOGY Part 1 of 6 by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum INTRODUCTION The issue of Israel is one of the major points of division in evangelical theology today. This is true both among Arminians and Calvinists. An evangelical theologian's view of Israel will determine whether he is a Covenant Theologian or a Dispensationalist. It will also determine what kind of Covenant Theologian he is: postmillennial, amillennial, or premillennial. The question of Israel is central for a proper Systematic Theology. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, which contains the first Systematic Theology in Church history, expounds on Israel in the center of his epistle devoting three full chapters (9-11) out of sixteen to this topic. Yet, while there are many Systematic Theologies today that have systematized all areas of biblical truth, none thus far has developed an Israelology as part of their system. These articles will survey what the concerns of an Israelology would be.1 DEFINITION OF TERMS Important terms are used throughout this study that should be defined as part of the introduction. Systematic Theology A science which follows a humanly devised scheme or order of doctrinal development and which purports to incorporate into its system all the truth about God and His universe from any and every source. Systematic Theology may be defined as the collecting, scientifically arranging, comparing, exhibiting, and de- 1 For a detailed systematized Israelology, see this author's work, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries Press, fending of all facts from any and every source concerning God and His works.2. Israelology This term refers to a subdivision of Systematic Theology incorporating all theological doctrines concerning the people of Israel. Israel As used in this study, the term Israel is viewed theologically as referring to all descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, also known as the Jews, the Jewish people, Israelites, Hebrews, etc.3 The term is not limited to the present political and national state in the Middle East, which is merely a part of the whole; nor is it limited to those who adhere to the religion of Judaism only. THE PLACE OF ISRAELOLOGY IN SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY In every work of Systematic Theology, Israelology is found missing as a major division. In all Systematic Theologies, what exists of Israelology will only be partially developed. In Covenant Theology, the development will be minimal. In Dispensationalism, Israelology is only fully developed in its future aspect, not in its past and present aspects. Logically, Israelology must come just before Ecclesiology [the study the Church] and follow the same development. Both are a people of God but, historically, Israel precedes the Church. As Ecclesiology has been developed in its past, present, and future aspects, so must Israelology be. Only then will Systematic Theology be truly complete. |
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07-08-2017, 06:31 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,965
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Re: Israeology
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The part I have most problem with is this paragraph where Israel is defined, as possibly NOT being the present nation of Israel and NOT necessarily being Jewish. It is a fact that by now many of the genetically related descendants of Abraham are now Muslim or part of the Muslim nations that wish to see Israel's destruction. Some would be in the Taliban and others probably would be in ISIS. Another downside of this doctrine I see is its relationship and tendency toward Anglo-Israelism and other false doctrines, such that those who find themselves with 1% Hebrew DNA consider themselves to be "God's chosen". I believe the teaching of the bible is not concerned with genetics but the culture and the religion. Israel must be limited to those who adhere to Judaism or the present nation state of Israel. To me it is absurd to think that a person who is genetically related to Abraham yet is a Muslim, Hindu or pagan today could ever be considered to be part of God's people today just because of their biology. |
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