The introduction of leaven

[OBW]

First, I’m a little surprised that you would determine that the return of Christ is dictated by man and delayed by his lack of proper organizational skills.

But more than that, I am a little befuddled that the fact that there was any kind of organization, whether apostles, elders, deacons, or whatever we flawed humans turned it into over time, is suggested as the cause of the problems we see today in the whole of Christianity. And then you mention that it might have helped Lee do what he did to the LC. Actually, it was a willful ruse that there was not an organization while that man (and his deputies) hid behind the curtain and caused the Great and Mighty Oz to appear on the screen that caused the LC’s problems.

Organization did not cause the RCC’s errors. The false belief that there was a succession of supreme leaders starting with Peter and passing through the various popes did it. If there is one who is God’s deputy on earth, then whatever he says must be true. If the one that rises to power is an unregenerated fool, then the changes could be devastating.

Surely the appointment of elders will not be blamed for Ephesus’ loss of its first love. But neither did elders stop the decline. Elders didn’t invite Jezebel, but neither did they throw her out. It may have been more that they were unwilling to stand up to error and instead abdicated their responsibility. That suggests a lack of leadership.

So we won’t have elders. Got a better solution? Do you propose that lack of clear leadership will successfully keep Hitler out of leadership? The “madly ambitious” tend to rise to power in a vacuum.

And how does Babylon fit into this?

The problem is that so far I have seen a lot of correlation. There were errors and mistakes and there were elders. There also were members of the body of Christ. If we just have no members of the body of Christ, then the body of Christ will not be lead into error.

Find a causal link. I have not seen one suggested. I have only seen correlation. Might as well determine that the fact that airplanes are allowed to fly in the sky is the reason for the 9/11 attacks. Yeah, I know. That’s way off base. But have you done anything more than fret about the appointment of elders and deacons and the separate observation of errors in the church? If you want to do an “Emerging Church” kind of conversation that talks about things for 20 years but comes to no conclusions, have at it. Otherwise, either find a link or cease. Just suggesting that there might be a link is getting old. This is not the first time it has come up and I don’t recall that there has yet been a causal link found. How long do we continue to search for something that may not be there? When do we decide that it is negative research and conclude that we have found nothing and that more time spent will just find more nothing?

I do not think that questioning the Bible is a bad thing. But it should eventually lead to something. It should help us ferret out our errors, or strengthen our faith as we discover that what we previously accepted based on the word of another is seen fully by our own inquiry. But there should be a limit to endless doubt and angst. If this continually revisited issue does not begin to conclude, then it seems to suggest a desire to find fault but no ability to succeed at that goal. I do not say that you are willfully trying to fault the existence of elders and deacons, but rather that you are unwilling to accept that a lengthy yet unsuccessful search for proof of that fault should say something.

Now you know my position. Carry on as you will. If you come up with something, that will be good.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by OBW

If you want to do an “Emerging Church" kind of conversation that talks about things for 20 years but comes to no conclusions, have at it. Otherwise, either find a link or cease. Just suggesting that there might be a link is getting old. This is not the first time it has come up and I don’t recall that there has yet been a causal link found.

Love is patient, my brother.

I was discussing with someone just this morning about the human fallacy of efficiency. Henry Ford has brainwashed our generation. That is very clearly not God's way. The generations from Adam to Christ are way more than I would have laid out, particularly the intertestamental period. The God of the universe dwelling on the earth for 33.5 years seems like a pretty big chunk of time to just end up in crucifixion (wouldn't 20 years have been plenty, really?) And now we've been in this new era for more than 2000 years. God sure seems to take His time, doesn't He?

How long? When?

Dunno.

I'm personally following this line as long as it's feeding me. If it's not feeding you, I can understand that. Not everyone's need is met by the same supply.

"find a link or cease"?

Grace to you, brother.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem is that so far I have seen a lot of correlation. There were errors and mistakes and there were elders.

Find a causal link. I have not seen one suggested. I have only seen correlation.

have you done anything more than fret about the appointment of elders and deacons and the separate observation of errors in the church?

either find a link or cease. Just suggesting that there might be a link is getting old. This is not the first time it has come up and I don’t recall that there has yet been a causal link found. How long do we continue to search for something that may not be there?

I do not think that questioning the Bible is a bad thing. But it should eventually lead to something.

I do not say that you are willfully trying to fault the existence of elders and deacons, but rather that you are unwilling to accept that a lengthy yet unsuccessful search for proof of that fault should say something.

Mike,

Your points are well taken. So far I have not offered anything to show that these phenomena, which I term "degradation" and "organization", are not merely independent events in the life of the church. Fair enough.

I very much appreciate your analysis. Thank you for taking the time to read my ideas, and even moreso for responding.

I have an active imagination, which is a good thing (usually), but I probably lack your analytical rigor, and very much appreciate your coming alongside. Peace & grace.

[YP0534]

Apparently, not that this is anything more than a "coincidence", but Ignatius of "Antioch" appears to be stating these offices fairly formally as early as 110 A.D.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Bish...and_Deacon.asp

There may not be a complete historical record upon which to delineate a "beyond a shadow of a doubt" certainty about the origins of hierarchy but there seems to be reasonably good evidence that such existed while the apostles were still alive. Without express approbation somewhere, I submit it was with their assent and approval, if not at their initiation as I have suggested.

But I think that might be done with this particular topic for now.

Thanks to all!

[OBW]

aron & YP,

I know I seem a little perturbed. I do not doubt that there are problems to be found in what we do with leadership. And today's leadership is all over the place in terms of how it is carried out.

If you think you can find something, then I'm all for it and will gladly take it when when it comes.

Yes, YP, I have become a little impatient. I understand the process of contemplation. I do not have an answer that I need to defend. But when it seems that there is perpetually a question about whether the appointment of elders may be some cause of a problem but never anything that supports it beyond being a question to ask, then it begins to come across as an innuendo that taints without being an established fact that can be discussed. (A sort of "when did you stop beating your wife" question.) I mention the Emerging Church "conversation" because they do not like to be called a movement since they are just discussing some questions about faith. But the same questions keep getting asked going on 20 plus years now, but when someone suggests an answer, they cry "foul," say they have not arrived at an answer, and keep everything in perpetual limbo as they converse. At some point, this discussion will become the same kind of unsolved "black hole" that many of the questions the Emergents ask have become.

I do not see Christ's life as being 33-1/2 years, or the fact that we are now almost 2,000 years since Christ as relevant to whether the question should simply remain on the table perpetually because you can't find basis to prove or disprove a hypothesis. "I understand you, but let us contemplate it some more anyway" is an OK answer. It surely is not a matter of my will over yours.

Do you keep doing research on the legal point for which there just doesn't seem to be anything? When do you stop? (rhetorical; no need to answer)

I'm not telling you to stop. Just suggesting that some boundaries be put on the inquiry. For me, those boundaries seem to have been exceeded. But then I am about to bow out (as if I hadn't done so some time back but refused to simply "go away").

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by OBW

Do you keep doing research on the legal point for which there just doesn't seem to be anything? When do you stop? (rhetorical; no need to answer)

It's gonna get an answer, though, because it helps illustrate how I see that boundary.

You stop when you have exerted time and effort commensurate with the importance of the issue.

It's somewhat of a judgment call of when you've reached that point and reasonable people can disagree.

But, for me, the magnitude of the point defines the scope of the research.

I think leadership, whether legitimate or pretend, is perhaps the largest issue facing the believers in these days.

Anti-Christ will seek to draw even the elect after himself and too many good people of faith are kept from God's fullest blessings because of inadequate leadership of one kind or another.

I'll probably dig further on my own into these topics as a consequence of these beliefs, content that at least for the present the question is relatively well framed.

But if you ever do come across someone who has seriously considered these things and written about them, regardless of the eventual determination, please do remember to share that with me.

Thank you.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by YP0534

But if you ever do come across someone who has seriously considered these things and written about them, regardless of the eventual determination, please do remember to share that with me.

Will do. And I will be as interested in either outcome as you are.