Important Announcement regarding the Alternative Views Subforum

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have strikingly different world views which is evidenced here.

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

So I burn wood for heat. That's not environmentally friendly either, but it's the best I can do right now. It's colder, as they say, than a witches tit here. No snow, like prolly bro Ohio has, but dipping to 11 at night, and hanging below freezing, so I'm burning thru a lot of wood.

I've become a fire worshiper. I love my stove. Prometheus sure did us a big favor, even if he defied Zeus by stealing fire and introducing it to us mortals. He made a great self sacrifice for us, and got punished for it. Thanks Prometheus.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

So I burn wood for heat. That's not environmentally friendly either, but it's the best I can do right now. It's colder, as they say, than a witches tit here. No snow, like prolly bro Ohio has, but dipping to 11 at night, and hanging below freezing, so I'm burning thru a lot of wood.

I've become a fire worshiper. I love my stove. Prometheus sure did us a big favor, even if he defied Zeus by stealing fire and introducing it to us mortals. He made a great self sacrifice for us, and got punished for it. Thanks Prometheus.

Do you have a Franklin stove? My dad had one, very efficient. 0 emissions does not mean we can't burn wood. Simply that we can't burn fossil fuel. Of course we generally think of biofuel, but wood is also a "biofuel" that is renewable.

In 2014 the cost per watt for Solar panels averages $3.86, in 2017 it was $3.17. That is a substantial drop in price and the drop in price has been accelerating in the last 12 months.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you have a Franklin stove?

I wish. It's an ancient Ember Hearth, prolly 70 or 80 year old. It was given to me. It takes 4 strong men to even pick it up. Moving it is another matter ; just a jump at a time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you have a Franklin stove? My dad had one, very efficient. 0 emissions does not mean we can't burn wood. Simply that we can't burn fossil fuel. Of course we generally think of biofuel, but wood is also a "biofuel" that is renewable.

In 2014 the cost per watt for Solar panels averages $3.86, in 2017 it was $3.17. That is a substantial drop in price and the drop in price has been accelerating in the last 12 months.

Without an efficient stove, wood is far dirtier than oil or coal. It is mostly banned in all the cities, though they are lax with fire places.

My area can go without sun for weeks in December. I have no south-facing roof for panels. With nat gas so economical, I would not even consider alternative fuels or heating technology since the house would never sell.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without an efficient stove, wood is far dirtier than oil or coal. It is mostly banned in all the cities, though they are lax with fire places.

My area can go without sun for weeks in December. I have no south-facing roof for panels. With nat gas so economical, I would not even consider alternative fuels or heating technology since the house would never sell.

Yes, wood is dirtier. There is a very good reason why it is banned in many cities. However, if you are collecting firewood and burning it that is a "renewable resource" and hence can be part of a 0 emissions goal.

Coal on the other hand takes millions of years to form. It is a fossil fuel.

It is a simple mathematical equation -- the amount of carbon that enters the atmosphere each year must equal the amount that comes out. Carbon is not the villain, the villain is the excess carbon. 100 years ago there were very few options other than coal (wind, water). But today that is not true by any stretch. 50 years ago you could argue that solar and wind are not an economically viable option, that also is no longer true by any analysis.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, wood is dirtier. There is a very good reason why it is banned in many cities. However, if you are collecting firewood and burning it that is a "renewable resource" and hence can be part of a 0 emissions goal.

Coal on the other hand takes millions of years to form. It is a fossil fuel.

It is a simple mathematical equation -- the amount of carbon that enters the atmosphere each year must equal the amount that comes out. Carbon is not the villain, the villain is the excess carbon. 100 years ago there were very few options other than coal (wind, water). But today that is not true by any stretch. 50 years ago you could argue that solar and wind are not an economically viable option, that also is no longer true by any analysis.

For me it never was an either/or option. Many of my rural friends burn wood efficiently. When I had a huge tree cut down last year, I had them stack all the wood along the street - common practice - and within a couple days it was all gone, picked up by guys in pickup trucks who have wood stoves. If awareness was closer, he would have got all the wood.

The point is - we should have diversity. Where I am, coal power plants are great, and solar is mostly stupid. Out in Arizona, coal is stupid, and solar is super. I'd like to see fracking natural gas be used in more homes, but with the incredible advances in heat pump technology, it is now the best option for rural America. My in-laws, who get no winter sunshine, living on the north side of a mountain, dug four wells in the yard, and now got all the cheap heat they will ever need. My brother used to live in Queens, and he thought Nuclear was a horrible idea there because of evacuation, but it seems to work great in the rural South and Midwest. Like I said, diversity! Options!

And some politician in WashDC should not be able to shut down the coal industry, simply because the coastline liberal elites agree with him. Yet if he really cared for environmental safety, he would not have permitted dozens of train consists daily to move high volatile Balkan crude through the cities to enrich his buddy Warren Buffett who owned the trains.

Trump has replaced corruption with common sense contrary to mainstream media chatter -- oh yeah, after months and months they still have found no evidence of Russian collusion. But don't stop looking, it's got to be there somewhere.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, wood is dirtier. There is a very good reason why it is banned in many cities. However, if you are collecting firewood and burning it that is a "renewable resource" and hence can be part of a 0 emissions goal.

Coal on the other hand takes millions of years to form. It is a fossil fuel.

It is a simple mathematical equation -- the amount of carbon that enters the atmosphere each year must equal the amount that comes out. Carbon is not the villain, the villain is the excess carbon. 100 years ago there were very few options other than coal (wind, water). But today that is not true by any stretch. 50 years ago you could argue that solar and wind are not an economically viable option, that also is no longer true by any analysis.

Let's face it, we all leave an environmental footprint of some kind.

Back in the 1800s, when world population was only a billion, it wasn't much of a problem. Now, with over 7 billion even the smallest footprint is a concern.

So far, seems, war, disease, famines, catastrophes, etc., haven't been able to slow population explosion.

It's gonna take God to do it ... in the great flame out. But if He delay's, we don't need Him, we can do it ourselves.

Sooner or later humans will become as extinct as the dinosaurs. But not to worry, we, a superior more intelligent and self-conscious, being came along after them. Maybe that will happen after we're gone.

In other words, our end allows God another chance. Maybe He's learned something, and will get it right the next time.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Let's face it, we all leave an environmental footprint of some kind.

Back in the 1800s, when world population was only a billion, it wasn't much of a problem. Now, with over 7 billion even the smallest footprint is a concern.

Many environmentalists teach this, but I disagree. I don't think the farmer in Kurdistan burning dung is a concern. I think that cities are the concern. If Shanghai decided to generate electricity by burning wood that would be a huge concern, but if you own a couple of acres of land and want to gather the firewood and burn it each winter, that to me is something the Earth can handle.

Originally Posted by awareness

So far, seems, war, disease, famines, catastrophes, etc., haven't been able to slow population explosion.

I think we should be good stewards. A massive die off of people would not be a solution, it would simply make it impossible for us to develop cleaner technologies.

Originally Posted by awareness

It's gonna take God to do it ... in the great flame out. But if He delay's, we don't need Him, we can do it ourselves.

Sooner or later humans will become as extinct as the dinosaurs. But not to worry, we, a superior more intelligent and self-conscious, being came along after them. Maybe that will happen after we're gone.

In other words, our end allows God another chance. Maybe He's learned something, and will get it right the next time.

We were assigned the responsibility of taking care of the Earth. It is our responsibility. If we fail it is essentially insignificant. The Earth has had 5 extinctions in the last 500 million years, this will be the 6th. That only refers to the last 500 million years, the Earth is 4.6 billion years. So in the grand scheme of things on Earth this would merely make the top 10. However, there are 8 planets in our solar system, very arrogant to think that they don't matter. Finally, from the grand prospective the Sun would have to be far more important than any planet. So as far as our solar system is concerned this climate change barely registers as an important event. Still there are a billion stars in our galaxy, so from the galaxies perspective it is completely insignificant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We were assigned the responsibility of taking care of the Earth. It is our responsibility. If we fail it is essentially insignificant.

I just don't believe that this current earth is man's permanent home. Before Genesis the earth was uninhabitable, and according to Revelation, it will soon be once again uninhabitable. That's not to say that we should be reckless and destroy the planet, but that we should recognize what our Creator is doing. We also must recognize that mankind will reap what he has sown for centuries.

This planet is changing, and it should warn us of His coming. Independent of our "carbon footprint," we are facing climate changes, tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, deluges, etc. We cannot foolishly blame all these events on Trump for canceling the Paris climate accord. That accord was a fool's dream, just an American cash giveaway. Obama was good at that.

Sure I sound apocalyptic, and I am, but trying to believe that mankind will save itself is far worse idiocy. We can't even protect ourselves from a crazed dictator the other side of the world. At this rate, every terrorist organization will have nukes in another decade. Nuclear technology is spreading, and like awareness told us, mankind will kill himself off unless the Lord Jesus returns to save those who remain.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Many environmentalists teach this, but I disagree. I don't think the farmer in Kurdistan burning dung is a concern. I think that cities are the concern. If Shanghai decided to generate electricity by burning wood that would be a huge concern, but if you own a couple of acres of land and want to gather the firewood and burn it each winter, that to me is something the Earth can handle.

The earth can handle everything. Virtually everything goes back to the earth over time.

Originally Posted by ZNP

I think we should be good stewards.

I agree.

Originally Posted by ZNP

We were assigned the responsibility of taking care of the Earth.

The problem is more like that we took responsibility to care for the earth. If we hadn't taken ourselves out of the food chain some 10,000 years ago, the population of human species would have remained balanced like all the rest of the species.

You'll like this one bro ZNP. If man had live only by his animal instincts, like all the rest of the critters, the population would have remained balanced. But something happened. We developed self consciousness and intelligence -- symbolized by the tree of knowledge of good and evil -- and took control, told God to screw off, that we'd no longer trust in His providing for sustenance, and would "TAKE" it away from Him. That was the birth of Totalitarian Agriculture. More food, more population. That's an evolutionary principle, that all the rest of the species live by.

Maybe that's why God rejected Cain's offering ... God didn't like Totalitarian Agriculture, as the Cains' "fruit of the ground" symbolism may represent (Gen 4:3).

Originally Posted by ZNP

It is our responsibility. If we fail it is essentially insignificant. The Earth has had 5 extinctions in the last 500 million years, this will be the 6th. That only refers to the last 500 million years, the Earth is 4.6 billion years. So in the grand scheme of things on Earth this would merely make the top 10. However, there are 8 planets in our solar system, very arrogant to think that they don't matter. Finally, from the grand prospective the Sun would have to be far more important than any planet. So as far as our solar system is concerned this climate change barely registers as an important event. Still there are a billion stars in our galaxy, so from the galaxies perspective it is completely insignificant.

Amen brother.

Check out The Power of Ten ... our insignificance in the universe will blow your mind:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/f...f10/index.html

Hint: Let it run on auto at first. Pay attention to the banner at the top. When it's done you can run it, or play it backwards. Then you can control it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

My brother tried to put up a windmill. He is in a fairly high wind area. We were looking at the wind charts. He wanted to get off the grid too.

He ran into endless regulations. He needed a larger yard than two acres, because he had to have a fall zone which matched the height of the windmill and vanes -- very prohibitive.

Why don't the same fall zones exist for cell towers and high tension lines?