"That They May Be One, Even As We Are One" - by TAS

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by awareness

But no matter what Lee has to say about TAS, in my estimation TAS was much more true to his Christian teachings than Lee was to his own, and in his humilty before the Lord too.

This can clearly be seen in the publishing of both men, and how they contrast. Lee copyrights all his material (have you ever been on a LSM site, where they say it's copyrighted even for personal use - and then your public IP is posted, as a warning that they can find you?)

But TAS wouldn't allow his works to be copyrighted. He presented them to all the saints, and for any use whatsoever. This is how a proper Christian, one that's not worshiping mammon, should act.

TAS wasn't caught up in that.... So I posit that, the real flow remained with TAS, and the real flow can't be cornered, like Lee acted like it could be. Unlike TAS Lee was a megalomanic.

Dear brother awareness,

I share many of your feelings and concerns. For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways. Also, to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time. O, dear brothers!

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS and the web site http://austin-sparks.net. According to this site, "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

But wait . . . there's more!

• Free TAS books can be ordered from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK. They even pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
• Free TAS audio tapes can be ordered from "Sparks Tape Ministry" in Sugarland, TX. Again, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
• The dear ones who run the austin-sparks.net web site will send you a DVD with the entire contents of the web site free upon request. As always, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself. Something which becomes clear when reading the writings of T. Austin-Sparks is that very little information is given about himself or his personal life; instead the focus is consistently upon Christ as his (and our) Life. Your attention is continually directed away from the messenger to the One Who is the Message: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. (2 Cor 4:5)."

Thank you, dear Lord Jesus, for the example and pattern set forth by this precious servant of yours.

[awareness]

Yeah see brother kiss, this is what I mean when I say the flow went with TAS. The flow is not some outward show, like Lee obviously thought, but was something hidden, and humble, quiet and private. But most of all the flow is authentic ; that is it is found in those that are authentic. And TAS was authentic, or as authentic as men can be before the Lord.

Lee's flow was a showy flow. In the end, TAS's flow was of the Lord, but Lee's flow was of man.

I'm reading the thesis that can be found on this listserv, entitled, "1968 Thesis-Full Version.pdf," and it's plain that it was Lee's organizational skills that built the church there, and here in the states. That's why Lee had to take tighter and tighter control of the LC, and make extremely exagerated claims, such as : "I am the oracle ; I am the apostle ; I am the authority, of God on the earth." Lee was certain that the LC movement wouldn't make it without him. The Blended Brothers clearly feel the same way.

Where is the submission to the Lord building the church? Why does there have to be a submission to Lee, and his ministry?

Clearly because they lack the faith that the Lord can do it.

And yet, the Lord is doing it. In my heart, and the heart of many that have never heard of the LC, Lee, or Nee.

The idea that the Lord has lost the church, and WE must recover it, is foolishness. It belittles the Lord, and profanes his ability to build his church. It's really a small faith that thinks these things.

Harold

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Dear brother awareness,

I share many of your feelings and concerns. For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways. Also, to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time. O, dear brothers!

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS and the web site http://austin-sparks.net. According to this site, "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

But wait . . . there's more!

• Free TAS books can be ordered from Emmanuel Church in Tulsa, OK. They even pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
• Free TAS audio tapes can be ordered from "Sparks Tape Ministry" in Sugarland, TX. Again, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.
• The dear ones who run the austin-sparks.net web site will send you a DVD with the entire contents of the web site free upon request. As always, they pay the shipping! Click here for more information.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself. Something which becomes clear when reading the writings of T. Austin-Sparks is that very little information is given about himself or his personal life; instead the focus is consistently upon Christ as his (and our) Life. Your attention is continually directed away from the messenger to the One Who is the Message: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. (2 Cor 4:5)."

Thank you, dear Lord Jesus, for the example and pattern set forth by this precious servant of yours.

[kisstheson]

Hello dear brother awareness,

Interestingly enough, TAS's mention of the experience of the Lord withdrawing and not being able to sense the Lord's presence is found in Message #7, which is exactly the message where I left off almost a year ago.

TAS mentions this experience is a very general way. While there are no details given, the listener/reader can tell that TAS is most definitely speaking from personal experience. In fact, TAS stated right up front that his whole burden in these messages was to speak words from deep experience, to speak of those lessons which he had learned first-hand from the Lord. These are his words (emphasis mine):

"The Bible shows what a wonderful thing it is to be in the presence of God. Oh, when the Lord is present, what a blessed thing it is. And the most terrible thing that the Bible shows is for the Lord to withdraw Himself from men. I expect all of us here know something about that. I mean that the most difficult thing in our experience is not to sense the Presence of the Lord. If, when we have a day, when it seems that the Lord is far away, that is a very very hard day. When we have a day, when we realize the Presence of the Lord, that is the best day in our life. You remember the Lord's servant of old says, "If Thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence." He could not contemplate going out without God. The Lord says, "My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest." And so they were able to go on."

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones, beloved ones of God,

Did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God once the plane he was on left Taipei in March of 1957? As discussed in post # 68, TAS apparently told WL in August of 1958 that the ‘flow’ from God had left him [TAS], and it had not returned, right up until that very day (i.e. August of 1958). In that post, I stated that I believed TAS was under the discipline of the Lord due to his not being discerning enough regarding the divided situation in Taiwan. While TAS should have realized more about the real situation in Taiwan, I believe the words he spoke at that time were true and needed to be heard by WL. We talk about TAS losing the 'flow' from God, but we forget that TAS's worst fears regarding how the "ground of the church" teaching would lead to narrowness and exclusiveness were realized in the terrible split in 1961 which divided "The Little Flock" into two pieces. O Lord, have mercy! What a terrible thing that was!

The question remains: Did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God when he left Taipei in 1957? Let's examine TAS's own words in these messages spoken in the Philippines in 1964. I have only examined TAS's speaking through message #7, and there are 42 messages in total.

"I have received quite a number of pressing invitations to come to Manila for nearly two years past. During that time, the invitations have become stronger and stronger. Perhaps you wonder why I have waited for nearly two years . . . You know, dear friends, we are the prisoners of Jesus Christ. We cannot go where we would like to go. And we cannot move when we would like to move. When we made Jesus "Lord," we made Him "Lord" of all our movements and all our time . . . The Lord knows all about the people's invitations. But the Lord says, "Not now. I have My time for that." . . . We are here. At last, we are here. And that is not because of the pressing invitation, that is because as we continually waited on the Lord, we had the sense that the Lord was saying, "Now is the time."

"And as soon as we felt that the Lord's time had come, we began to get those various tokens from the Lord which confirmed that . . . I went to the Lord and asked Him for a word for me. I said, now Lord, it is very important that you give me a word to go on. One morning I was reading my Bible, I was reading a chapter that I know very well, I was reading chapter fifty-two of the prophecies of Isaiah. I did not know that I was going to get the Lord's answer to my prayer in that chapter. But as I read on, I came to this verse, and it was as though the Lord said, 'That is My word for you over Manila.' And the words are these: "The Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your reward'' (Isa. 52:12)."

"When I was thinking and praying about this time this evening, and asking the Lord for just a little word to give you, there came into my heart the first words of Paul, in the First Letter to the Corinthians, I will just read those words to you. "Paul, called an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours." It is the last part of that verse which is very much in my heart, "With all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their Lord and ours."

"For some weeks before I knew that I was coming to Manila, the Lord was speaking to me about a certain matter. And then when I knew that I was coming, the Lord indicated that that was the matter about which He wanted me to speak to you. I feel that it is the most important matter in the Christian life. I hope that you will take note of that statement. What is the most important thing in the life of a Christian? It is: 'SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.'"

Based upon these experiences from late 1963 and early 1964, it would appear that TAS was definitely once again experiencing the 'flow' from God. TAS experienced the Lord's restraining hand, just like Paul and those with him in Acts 16. TAS experienced a real rhema word from the Lord. He experienced an instant word. And he experienced a deep burden being placed in his heart by the Lord. So, I ask you, dear ones, based upon TAS's own speaking, did TAS permanently lose the 'flow' from God in 1957?

[awareness]

KTS:
Based upon these experiences from late 1963 and early 1964, it would appear that TAS was definitely once again experiencing the 'flow' from God.

KTS, from a strictly objective point of view, anyone that thinks they can control the flow of God has to be one of the most arrogant persons in the world.

And once they make such a proclamation, then the seed of arrogance begins to grow. And after awhile they will then be saying things like "I am the oracle," "I am the apostle," "I am the authority."

All of this will of course be coming from the growth of the seed of arrogance. And what is produced will be self effort.

Can a man grab the wind? Can a man control the wind?

It appears to me that TAs was honest. And how many of us, if honest, has to admit that sometimes we don't sense the presence of God.

Could Lee be that honest. Could he ever admit that the Lord seemed to him to withdraw Himself from Lee? You know it happened. It happens to everyone that seeks to follow the Lord.

I say, because TAS was in honest person, that makes him more ture in his walk with the Lord than those that can't admit that they sometimes misstep, or fail to sense the presence. TAS wasn't a pretender. Lee was.

So therefore, the real flow was with TAS, and the fake flow was with Lee.

As I stated, Lee's measure of the flow was outward. If his movement was growing, that was all the proof Lee needed to claim the flow was with him.

But how arrogant that is! I bring someone to the Lord, which is really the Lord's doing, and I then claim the flow is with me.

This is why I say Lee was a megalomaniac. Lee was ambitious from the get-go. The fruit of his ambition became more and more obvious as time went on.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can a man grab the wind? Can a man control the wind?

I long have protested the accusations of "modalism" regarding the Trinity teachings of WL, but here I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Flowdalism builds the underpinnings for the concept of "the minister of the age." Flowdalism basicaly says that God can only flow in one minister on earth at a time. All the teachings we received about Peter the fisherman, Paul the tent maker, and John the net mender provided so-called scriptural credence to Flowdalism. Church history was then manipulated to provide all the necessary support for the concepts of recovery flowdalism subsequent to the RCC dark ages. Think about the flow lineage we were taught -- Luther - Guyon - Zinzendorf - Darby - Nee - Lee - We -- did I miss anybody? (Read the book Vision of the Age.)

Flowdalism says that God could really only speak His "up-to-date" word thru one minister at a time. All other contemporaries had to go to such a minister for the "flow." In the 1st century, ones like James, Barnabas, and Apollos should have "lined up" under Paul, because he alone had the flow. In the 20th century, TAS lost the flow supposedly because the flow was passed from Nee to Lee.

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I long have protested the accusations of "modalism" regarding the Trinity teachings of WL, but here I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Flowdalism says that God could really only speak His "up-to-date" word thru one minister at a time. All other contemporaries had to go to such a minister for the "flow." In the 1st century, ones like James, Barnabas, and Apollos should have "lined up" under Paul, because he alone had the flow. In the 20th century, TAS lost the flow supposedly because the flow was passed from Nee to Lee.

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

O my dear brother Ohio! "Flowdalism"!!

I suppose this thread was getting rather heavy and needed some good comic relief! Your new term caught me completely off-guard and I literally laughed out loud!

Of course, as you point out, dear brother Ohio, there is a very serious, sober, side to this matter as well. "Flowdalism" most definitely leads to exclusivity because it causes us to look down upon - even to completely disregard - every other minister of Christ besides the one who is supposedly "the unique minister of the age". O God, have mercy on us and keep our sickness always in remission.

TAS's ministry, so absolutely centered on Christ, so full of emphasis regarding the importance of inward reality, was desperately needed as a balancing word in the LC's for decades. How utterly sad that TAS's rich ministry became a victim of "flowdalism".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have to say that we in the LC's were definitely taught a concept shall I call "flow-modalism." Flowdalism?

Does this sound crazy? How exclusive could we be? Thousands in the LC's today, like me at one time, believe this wholeheartedly. Flowdalism for them has risen to the status of "the common faith." I was once a staunch advocate of flowdalism. I am now a recovering flowdalist. My sickness has gone into remission.

Hear! Hear! Let it be known to the far reaches of the earth, and to all the four corners of the world that, OHIO is the first to coin the word Flowdalism (google it to find no such word). And we should submit it to the American Dialect Society. that awarded the word of the year, back in 2005, to Stephen Colbert's "truthiness." Cuz the word is right up there with truthiness.

But beyond that, Ohio’s inspiration from above, has also identified the very cornerstone of the foundation of Witness Lee’s movement.

Lee may not have been a Modalist, but there’s no denying that he was a Flowdalist. Not even Ron Kangas can refute it.

So I’m glad that TAS didn’t latch onto Lee’s ministry. To me, without proof even, seems he knew something was awry with Lee, and was smart to not be a part of it. TAS didn’t need an intermediary to Christ, like Lee assumed he himself was. Not at all.

So Lee, who was a dyed-in-the-wool Flowdalist, could only see it one way : thru his Flowdalist eyes. His eyes weren’t open to see God working in others lives and hearts, and that His flow was there also, in others.

In fact, when Lee failed to see the Lord’s working and flow in others, he was dismissing the Lord Himself flowing in the members of His body.

And this is the epitome of arrogance, and egotism, that’s blinded by a lust for power. Cornering the flow of the Lord was Lee’s way of enhancing his power, enhancing his position on a podium above all others. The fruit of the tree is obvious, to those with eyes to see.

And it’s not that the flow of God wasn’t with Lee. The flow of God is wherever hearts are open and willing to surrender to God. In truth the flow of God went both ways, with Lee and TAS, and the flow was working all over the place, even where Lee wasn’t known of.

Lee embrace a small God, that only flowed thru him. Everywhere else was fallen Christianity to Lee, because he mistakenly, or maliciously maybe, beleived he was God's special person, that had a corner on God. Foolishness!

Yet I’ve found God working in many other hearts, that show no interest in Lee when I point him out to them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

For the sake of their own testimony, I beg the brothers at LSM to consider how bad that warning message looks on the bottom of the screen when viewing LSM's on-line publications. They are certainly well within their legal rights to post such a warning, but it really does look tacky. It definitely sends the wrong message. Dear LSM brothers - I beg you, please reconsider your ways.

And, most importantly and most precious of all:

"Based in Honor Oak, London, TAS (as he was affectionately known) was not lacking in opposition and rejection to himself and his ministry in the denominational circles of the day, he felt he should neither defend himself nor promote himself.

Brother KTS, thanks for the info on obtaining the ministry of TAS. It's just amazing to see how all of those who make his ministry available ... have the same heart that he has ... how wonderful.

As you have written, LSM's threatening policies at their on-line publications site, however, is a direct reflection of the minister they are promoting.

In the LC's, TAS and Ingalls were condemned like no others ... sort of like the way Darby and the exclusives condemned George Muller like no other. The ministry of Muller must be more excellent, look at how Darby smeared his name. The ministry of TAS must be more excellent, look at how WL smeared his name.

What a contrast seen in the attitudes of TAS and WL. TAS felt "he should neither defend himself nor promote himself." On the contrary, for many years I was troubled by WL's bellicose attitude (I have new missiles to launch at poor, poor Christianity.") He was incessantly promoting himself and defending himself.

I remember seeing a chart one time which documented all the times LSM had threatened legal action. I couldn't believe it. I was always told that the only legal action LSM ever took was against those post-Jonestown thrillers Mindbenders and God-Men.

Perhaps most troubling to me was the realization I had when I stopped serving in the LC. At that time I knew only a small fraction of what I have learned since about LSM. But ... one day I realized that there is a systemic disease that runs all thru LSM and the LC's ... they don't treat people well, and the program often produces bullies out of beloved brothers. It took me a long time to realize that "beloved Brother Lee" was the source of this disease.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What a contrast seen in the attitudes of TAS and WL. TAS felt "he should neither defend himself nor promote himself." On the contrary, for many years I was troubled by WL's bellicose attitude (I have new missiles to launch at poor, poor Christianity.") He was incessantly promoting himself and defending himself.

I remember seeing a chart one time which documented all the times LSM had threatened legal action. I couldn't believe it. I was always told that the only legal action LSM ever took was against those post-Jonestown thrillers Mindbenders and God-Men.

Perhaps most troubling to me was the realization I had when I stopped serving in the LC. At that time I knew only a small fraction of what I have learned since about LSM. But ... one day I realized that there is a systemic disease that runs all thru LSM and the LC's ... they don't treat people well, and the program often produces bullies out of beloved brothers. It took me a long time to realize that "beloved Brother Lee" was the source of this disease.

Amen, dear brother Ohio.

If there is one service I believe TAS' ministry can perform for those who have left the LSM LC, it is this: TAS presents an entirely different, and much more Christ-like, attitude towards his ministry. TAS never exercised "the arm of the flesh" to promote or defend his ministry. He knew that the Lord had entrusted him with a ministry and consequently, as he was faithful to carry out his ministry, he cast everything upon the Lord, fully trusting the Lord to bless, to vindicate, and to defend in His own way. I am so thankful to the Lord for such a beautiful, scriptural, pattern as that lived out by dear brother TAS. What a healthy pattern for the flock!

I look to our dear Lord Jesus Christ to bless this thread. May He use it to help so many of us unlearn the self-promotion, the self-defense, and the bellicosity we picked up during our time in the LSM LC. May He perform a deep work in all of us to undo the heart of a bully and in its place build up the heart of a self-sacrificing servant. May His heart of love become our heart.

Dear ones, may He save us from contradicting with our lives the words which we speak with our mouths. Dear beloved ones, may He have much mercy on us all!

[aron]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

to listen to most LSM conference and training audio messages, one must pay a monthly subscription fee. On top of that, one must pay for a license for most messages, and this license has to be renewed after a certain length of time.

Contrast LSM's approach with that taken by TAS ... "He [TAS] was insistent that his writings and tapes should not be copyrighted and as a result they are still freely available today and can be distributed in whatever way God leads." All the messages on this site can be downloaded for free. No licenses are involved. This includes both the audio messages and the written messages.

I am concerned that a precedent is being set here which doesn't bode well for the long and illustrious tradition of selling the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, good news in exchange for lucre even predates the NT gospel tradition -- it's roots can be seen in the blessings and cursings for sale by Balaam (Num 22-31). Then there is Simon the magician, who sees the opportunity for hucksterism (Acts 8). Then we have the nice rhyme by Johannes Tetzel, selling indulgences to raise money for St. Peter's in Rome, "When the coin in the offering box rings, the soul to heaven springs".

Of course, good news sold for cash really took off with the modern devices of dissemination, such as the printing press, then radio and television and now the internet. The televangelist was a fixture in the American culture in the late 20th century. Remember Oral Roberts? God told him that if he didn't raise $8 million quick He'd call him home. Roberts put out the plea and the faithful ponied up $9 million plus. Roberts' life was spared.

The LSM is merely continuing this long and venerable tradition. In fact, they have a nice improvement on it with the "one trumpet" scheme, in which only one ministry is allowed to disseminate good news for cash. All others are banned. So I think they are to be congratulated on a nice arrangement.

Now you have someone giving away the good news. Terrible! Brothers, I implore you to think about the ramifications of this activity. Think of the livelihood of all the "full timers" being jeapardized by such activity. God forbid that they should have to go out and get a job like everybody else.

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." 2 Thess. 3:10

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM is merely continuing this long and venerable tradition. In fact, they have a nice improvement on it with the "one trumpet" scheme, in which only one ministry is allowed to disseminate good news for cash. All others are banned. So I think they are to be congratulated on a nice arrangement.

Now you have someone giving away the good news. Terrible! Brothers, I implore you to think about the ramifications of this activity. Think of the livelihood of all the "full timers" being jeopardized by such activity. God forbid that they should have to go out and get a job like everybody else.

"For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." 2 Thess. 3:10

I hear ya, dear brother alan! This TAS web site and the associated TAS ministries are a shocking trend indeed! Written material that is not even copyrighted! Written and spoken material that can be freely downloaded! Free books (they even pay shipping)! Free audio tapes (they even pay shipping)! Free e-magazine! Free DVD of the contents of the entire web site!

LSM is definitely going "against the tide" on this one, and not in a positive way. There are so many web sites of Christian ministries, web sites of various assemblies, etc. all over the world who make their written, audio, and video content available for free. The TAS site is by far the most generous I have ever seen, but also worthy of mention are:

1. ministrymessages.org (Free listening and downloading of audio messages spoken by Titus Chu and other dear brothers in the GLA, plus free viewing and downloading of written messages)
2. christiantapeministry.com (Free viewing/listening and downloading of audio and video messages from TAS, Stephen Kaung, Devern Fromke, etc.)
3. sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads (Free viewing/listening and downloading of audio and video messages from TAS, A.W. Tozer, Ian Thomas, etc., plus free viewing and downloading of written messages from many ministers of Christ who lived before the age of audio recording)