Whistleblower

[OBW]

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

Bro OBW are you saying because of the power factor it was rape?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Consensual? Do you really believe that? This kind of position would not be tolerated today in the world, and you expect the church to ignore it?

Harvey would be smiling at you.

OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.

...

In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...

[Drake]

Brother John was right.. it was repulsive.

So, if it was a crime, why didn't Brother John go to the police... and why not that very same morning?

"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. "
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Brother John was right.. it was repulsive.

So, if it was a crime, why didn't Brother John go to the police... and why not that very same morning?

"...when they began to engage in mutually compromising immoral physical contact. "
Drake

Do you really wish to critique John Ingalls and exonerate Witness and Phillip Lee with this defense?

That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.

Doesn't sound consensual to me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

OBW,

Exactly. And why would a sister talk to John and Godfred about a consentual "relationship" with Philip Lee??? Does this sound like "consent"?

From Speaking the Truth in Love...
Wednesday, Sept. 30th, I received a telephone call from a sister who had a prominent position in the Living Stream Ministry Office, asking if she could see me that night. I consented. That evening she sat in my living room and with tears opened her heart to me. She had served sacrificially and faithfully for many years in the LSM office, and now she said she could not tolerate anymore the gross misconduct that was being perpetrated upon some and especially upon her.
...
In the morning of December 19, just before Ken and I were to leave for Texas that afternoon, the sister from the LSM office who had spoken to me on September 30th (see page 10) called and asked to speak to Godfred and me. We met with her and were utterly amazed at what we heard. She began to relate to us in detail some of the things she suffered while in the service of the LSM office. She wanted us to realize how grave the problem was. We were revulsed to the depths of our being, and when the conversation ended and we parted, we so full of abhorrent feelings that we were literally in a daze. ...

Godfred drove me to the airport to meet Ken. We were in a state of shock and utter disgust. All this had taken place in what we called the Lord’s recovery!

...

So sister Nell, are you saying it was rape?

[UntoHim]

The fact that John Ingalls and the others were "were revulsed to the depths of our being" should tell us all we need to know about the nature of the gross sexual misconduct of Phillip Lee. There is no need to get into all the gory details of this sordid affair on this public forum.

What revusles me to the depths of my being is Witness Lee's words and actions (or lack thereof) when he was made aware IN SPECIFIC DETAIL regarding Phillip Lee's gross misconduct. (in fact our dear brother Lee had been informed about Phillip's sordid behavior for YEARS before) At first he didn't want to even discipline his sexual predator son....he apparently just shrugged his shoulders and said "Nobody's Perfect!" Only when he realized that he was about to lose his iron grip on "The Recovery" did he take any serious action.

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. This magnitude of corruption and deception does not come upon a movement in any short period of time....it was years and years and even decades in the making. The recent revelations regarding the sexual misconduct of Watchman Nee now bring a clearer understanding of how and when this corruption and deception entered the LC movement from the very beginnings. From the recent testimonies here on this very forum, we know for sure that this same spirit of utter corruption and deception is still active to this day. May God have mercy.

So strong is this spirit of deception, that otherwise spiritually mature, sane and sensible people will do things, and cover up things, that even unsaved and unsanctified people would scarcely consider doing. How else does one account for the inaction of people like John Ingalls, Al Knoch, Godfred Otutey, Bill Malon, John So and many others in the face of such utter corruption for years and even decades? Of course they all paid a very high price for their decided ignorance and inexcusable tolerance. To be sure, many of these men did eventual act decisively and courageously. Better late than never. But I'm afraid maybe too late for some of the hundreds upon hundreds (thousands?) of vanquished foes strung along the highway of outcasts and defectors of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Thankfully, our God of mercy and grace is waiting to comfort and heal. For any who need help with this process we are here as well.

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[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.

It happened to the Mega-church in Ft. Lauderdale, Calvary Chapel, that had grown to 20,000 members.

Pastor Bob, as he was called, had what he called the Moses system of church governance. That is, God delivers to the Moses figure, pastor Bob in this case, who carries the ultimate unquestioned authority of God. That same unquestioned authority was delegated to the 200 preachers below him.

That allowed all kinds of sorted behavior, because the leadership went unquestioned, and were unaccountable.

Long story short, Pastor Bob got caught messing with married sisters, and the preachers below him were even involved with same sex relations. It was all covered up until a whistleblower came forth.

It happens in cults. Rose McGowan, for example, that was first to expose Weinstein, grew up in The Children of God, that was basically a sex cult. At least they were honest, and didn't cover it up.

That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth.

That's the problem with deputy authority doctrine and practice. You can run roughshod over brothers and sisters without any real consequence. They either have to take it or leave.
The doctrine produces pride and negates any possibility of being called for accountability.
Reading the various posts through the day. So much focus what was included in John's book.
Not even talking about ones whose stories have yet to be told.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

All of this indicates what a dark spirit of utter corruption and deception dominated the Local Church of Witness Lee at that point. -

Originally Posted by awareness

The problem is a system where one person is considered God's authority on the earth....
That's the kind of thing Watchman Nee's Spiritual Authority produces ... and that was produced in Lee's Recovery movement.

awareness has brought up one of the roots of the problems we are discussing on this thread.
"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Not a verse in the Bible but speaks of a universal truth nonetheless.

One of the main reasons that the Local Church of Witness Lee got nailed with the "cult" tag back in the 70s is the abject power invested in one man as the unquestioned "one apostle with the one ministry for the age". Of course Lee's off-the-wall home-brewed theology didn't help. Neither did their secrecy about what is really taught and practiced behind the meeting hall doors.

John Myer, in his book A Future and A Hope outlined this dynamic:
The most glaring of these was the stress on the group’s central figure, Witness Lee. I understood the concept of appreciation and respect toward ministers, but when titles like “the oracle,” “the minister of the age” and “the apostle” were routinely ascribed to Lee it struck me as being devotion of an unbalanced kind. According to my long-term observations, this issue alone raised red flags in more people than all the other questionable items in the Local Church Movement put together.
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