Whistleblower

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Steel

"As for me, I do not deny that there were many mistakes, misdeeds, faults, sins, etc. that have happened in the Lords Recovery. However, all the failures and shortcomings, were a test to the vision the Lord gave me. I do not follow a man, I follow the anointing. Perhaps, by sharing my experience I may supply just one little one, former or current member, to rebound from a stumble or prevent a stumble. I don’t know, the Lord knows." — Drake

Cool... I have the same sense.

Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool". I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive. These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance? Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women? These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.

The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.

These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'". Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced? Did you read their testimonies?

Your agreement with Drake is the problem. This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.

Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake. Here's what the Bible says:


Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls.

Nell

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Nell

Cool? Are you serious? What Philip Lee did, what BenM did, what the Local Church men are continuing to this day is not "cool". There is nothing about this topic that is "cool".

What you've done in your speaking above, Nell... Is try to present a dishonest straw man... Which is quite poor conduct for a believer in Christ Jesus.

I said nor suggested that I was cool with anything regarding Philip Lee or BenM, or even what the Local Church is continuing to this day.

Originally Posted by Nell

I find this attitude of yours totally disgusting and repulsive.

And I should care what a person whose own words expose as being dishonest thinks of me.

Nell... I'll tell you what the Lord finds totally disgusting and repulsive... Dishonesty.

And if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

Originally Posted by Nell

These men made no mistakes. They abused these sisters wilfully. Where is their repentance?

It certainly seems they are guilty as charged.

But their repentance is between them and the Lord.

According to scripture... Our need is to forgive.

Originally Posted by Nell

Where is their restitution for the horrible damage they have done to the Body of Christ, to the church, and to these women?

Scripture tells us that God's wheels of justice grind slowly, but finely.

I trust the Lord to gain what He needs to gain.

You should too.

Originally Posted by Nell

These men did not "stumble." They knew what they were doing and that is hideous sin.

Based on what I've read, I would think they did.

But if they were born again, their actions were indicative of falling/stumbling back into sin.

And if they were not saved... Their actions were simply those of a unbelievers.

Originally Posted by Nell

The Lord knows? I know, too. All you have to do is read the Bible.

I do read scripture... And I certainly know that the Lord knows... When I'm abiding in my spirit, where the Lord dwells one with me, and me one with the Lord.

Originally Posted by Nell

These sisters who were abused at the hands of Local Church men were not put there for an object lesson for sexual predators in the Local Church to "rebound from a 'stumble' or prevent a stumble'".

Absolutely.

But tell me... How many "Local Church men" are there in the world... And how many of these have committed this abuse?

I'm asking because you seem to have no problem casting aspersions across a very wide body of believers... In a very general way.

Originally Posted by Nell

Do you think these sisters think there was anything COOL about what they experienced?

Not at all.

Which is why I never said nor suggested they would be... Or I was.

But again... I understand why you seem intent on presenting a dishonest straw man.

Originally Posted by Nell

Did you read their testimonies?

What was presented on this thread, yes.

Originally Posted by Nell

Your agreement with Drake is the problem.

Not for me before the Lord.

And if it is a problem for you... Then you should take it before the Lord.

Originally Posted by Nell

This is how the cancer in the Local Church perpetuates itself.

Actually... No.

The cancer that is within the entire body is exactly that which has corrupted it for two thousand years...

And this corruption is exposed in your own dishonest speaking, as exposed in what I've quoted in this comment...

Speaking that is not of Christ.

Originally Posted by Nell

Do you think the Bible is "cool"? Maybe you should put more faith in the Bible than in Drake.

I know scripture is very cool.

And the faith that I have in scripture is the very same faith that the Lord has... And actually is... Just as scripture tells us.

And again, if you were clear on what scripture reveals you'd know this.

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what the Bible says...


Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

This is certainly what scripture tells us...

And in your above dishonesty is exposed the evil/darkness that is being referenced.

Originally Posted by Nell

Your and Drake's comments are full of great darkness. God have mercy on your souls... Nell

Being born again and therefore eternally saved... God has most certainly had mercy on my soul... And if Drake can say the same... Hallelujah!

As for my comment being full of darkness (I can't speak for Drake)...

Having already exposed yourself as someone who doesn't seem to know the difference between honesty and dishonesty... At this point, your opinion has no value before the Lord.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Steel

...But their repentance is between them and the Lord.

As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it. The standard for elders are higher. Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.


So elders are held to a higher standard. Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.

Don Rutledge's post:

Hope: #103
Regarding Ben McPhersons immorality, this is the report from a first hand witness: Ray Graver was the first to know. He contacted Benson Phillips who called for an urgent gathering at his home with Ray, Joe Davis of Houston, Don Looper of Austin and Don Rutledge of Dallas. This occurred the morning after Ben was found out. All the brothers there were furious. Don Rutledge angrily declared that they had all been betrayed. All agreed that Ben should be publicly excommunicated and publicly rebuked that all may fear. All agreed that the Lord could not bless the church in Irving due to Ben’s sin. Ben had confessed to Ray that this sin was not a one time thing but had been going on for some time including when he was in Arlington. Ben also admitted that he knew the Church in Arlington had lagged the other Dallas area churches in blessing due to his sin. At that time, none of these brothers would sympathize with any immorality and especially from an elder or co-worker.

While they were meeting, Witness Lee returned Bensons urgent message. After about a 30 minute conversation, Benson returned to the room where the brothers were waiting, still in a state of shock and outrage. Witness Lee urged them to consider Bens family and the harm to them if he was publicly exposed. He urged them not to publicly excommunicate him but simply ask him to move away. That is what Ray and Benson decided to do. The other three had big reservations but deferred to the Irving brothers to take care of the matter.

But then the lying started. Many people began to call wanting to know what happened to Ben. Since Witness Lee, Benson and Ray had decided to keep the real situation under wraps, what where these brothers to say. Looper and Rutledge would say that something must have happened in Irving and they did not know for sure – A LIE. Benson and Ray told various stories, Ben wanted to get away etc and not to worry since he was in fellowship.

Witness Lee urged Benson and Ray to spend time with Ben and seek to recover him, but they were too disgusted to seek to contact him.

Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all.

I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



Nell

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Nell

As far as repentance being between them and the Lord, let's review the scripture ... Witness Lee knew BenM need to repent. Benson, Ray, DonR, DonL and Joe Davis knew it. Ray Graver knew it.

We can all absolutely know when repentance is needed...

But repentance is unto the Lord first... Not man first.

Unbelievers ask forgiveness every day from those around them. And though there may be some natural human value in doing so, there is not divine value.

And, according to scripture, what every born again eternally saved believer in Christ Jesus should be seeking is that which has divine value.

Originally Posted by Nell

The standard for elders are higher.

The requirement for elders is higher... The standard for all believers is Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Nell

Further, if Witness Lee had followed the scripture and set the standard with his own son and later with BenM, we might not be dealing with this scourge today. Witness Lee clearly feared his own son more than he feared the Lord.

This is an assumption on your part.

And we should not be so vain as to think we have the ground to make assumptions.

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. (Joe Davis, Don Rutledge, Benson Phillips and Don Looper)... 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear... 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Absolutely clear.

And if some don't hold to what Paul instructed Timothy to hold to and set a pattern for other believers with... What should we do?

What does scripture tells us is the proper response to these brothers and sisters?

Originally Posted by Nell

So elders are held to a higher standard.

Again...

Elders are held to a higher requirement...

The standard for all believers in Christ is... Christ.

Originally Posted by Nell

Please provide us with an example of *even one* instance of the Local Church excommunicating a sinning brother for *anything* much less sexual abuse of the sisters in the Local Church.

I can't... As I don't know of any.

Originally Posted by Nell

Don Rutledge's post:... "Yes the worldly wisdom from Witness Lee and the unfaithfulness of the five brothers led to more tragedy. All five have an account to give at the judgment seat.

Hope

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."

Yep...

"In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all."

Originally Posted by Nell

I do have an example of a woman who was excommunicated publicly in the 1970's in The Church In Houston whose sin was fornication as a way of life. I was there in the room. It was a definite warning and there was fear among all who were there that night. I will never forget it. And, amazingly, the Elder who spoke in that meeting, excommunicating her, was BenM. Her sin was not between herself and the Lord. It was a church matter.

The church is the Lord's possession.

And the fact that it seems that you don't understand this very basic reality can only lead you to speak in error regarding the things of the church as they relate to the Lord.

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

This...

"...and ye are not your own?"

Is a reality you seem to have little understanding of.