Whistleblower

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Steel

Should believers in these local churches not have been aware of this way of the fallen old man and been prepared for it by seeking the Lord regarding it?
Scripture tells us to always be watchful...

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age." For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities. Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled. In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church. Are not church leaders held to higher standards? Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God? Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

I know some things about various things that have been experienced by believers who fellowship in local churches. But I wasn't a witness to what things took place in the '70s-'90s... As God did not place me in the LSM associated local church until 2003.

What then are you suggesting ... That I look back... And in doing so ignore looking forward?
Maybe God allows what He allows for the purpose of exposing what/who we are looking at.

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery. He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses. In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard. But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others. Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

And perhaps therein was your error, and the error of many others who suffered, and continue to suffer from the things that took place. Scripture tells us that only God is good.

So why think that humanity is good. We are called to love our neighbors... Not trust them. We are called to fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus... Not believe in them.

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much." Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM. Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

John 16:13... "But when He, the Spirit of reality, comes, He will guide you into all the reality; for He will not speak from Himself, but what He hears He will speak; and He will declare to you the things that are coming."

Do you have this Spirit of reality? Do you not believe this truth that scripture reveals?

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

My brother... According to scripture... The best things any brother or sister in Christ can do for another brother or sister in Christ... Is to turn to the Lord in their regenerated Spirit and take Christ as their center/source of their life, living, and being.

I don't need you to give me the knowledge you believe you have acquired from past experiences...

I need you to give me the Christ you have gained from past experiences of your abiding and expressing Him.

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures? Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post. 3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful? And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Steel, thanks for responding. So far we are in agreement with what you have written, so I will limit responses to your questions.

Oneness among the siants is always a good thing my brother.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee was presented to the LC members as a consummate "Minister of the Age."..."

No such designation in scripture.

And if the "...LC members..." did there due diligence regarding their searching the scriptures they would have know this.

Also... Hopefully being born again of the Spirit, and therefore having the Spirit in them to turn to so that the Spirit could reveal the reality of the situation... They would not have had to depend on what others presented Witness Lee as.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For years the workers and elders protected him and his sons' unrighteous activities.

Fallen humans do fallen human things.

Read scripture... It says so very clearly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Any member who voiced concerns was marginalized, and later expelled.

"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

Originally Posted by Ohio

In many cases, their reputations were smeared before the church.

Praise the Lord.

Are you not familiar with this scripture verses...

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Or do you just choose to not believe it.

And don't you know that scripture tells us that a believer must suffer even as the Lord suffered... And that we learn (grow with the growth of God) in and through our sufferings?

Surely you know this.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are not church leaders held to higher standards?

Those who are put in positions of leadership by the Lord are held to the requirements of their given position.

The standard that they are held to is the same standard all believers are held to... That standard being Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do they not have the responsibility to protect the church of God?

In Christ, yes.

Not in their natural humanity.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do not church leaders have the responsibility to vet out contrived rumors received from headquarters before publishing them as "truth?"

Elders of a local church should always carefully consider anything being applied to the duties of their position.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, God does allow many things to be exposed in the Recovery.

In chapter 6 of the book titled with his name, Isaiah tells us that he found that out.

God is like shining light... And when He comes in, His shining spontaneously exposes the true condition of what it is shining on.

Originally Posted by Ohio

He has also used this forum to shine a spotlight on LSM rulers' abuses.

He certainly could... But then scripture tells us that God can take even that which was meant for evil and bring about good.

Try not to be boastful in your fallen humanity my brother.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In my case, for 30+ years I did "look forward" just as you suggested, ignoring all the "negative opposition" I had heard.

Wonderful.

But I didn't say or suggest anyone ignore anything... Did I.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But LC leaders are skillful in exploiting that virtue in you, and me, and others.

Scripture tells us that Satan is a cunning, crafty enemy.

One whom only the Lord is able to be victorious over.

Which is why we should always be found in the Lord at all times.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul, however, challenged us to "prove all things" and hang on to the good, (Rom 12.2, I Thess 5.21) and not to trust men blindly.

Which I certainly subscribe to... And have said this on these threads.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great points, brother. You obviously have some words of wisdom which I did not possess in those days. In fact, no one in the LC's spoke like that!

The Lord gives each of us a measure of grace according to His need.

Don't be downcast by what has past... Be uplifted by what must come.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have often said that perhaps my biggest failure was "trusting the brothers too much."

My brother... You are in Christ... His victory is your victory... You are only a failure when you fail to see and enter into this reality... And yet... Even then... It is the life that is in you... His life... That ensures your victory.

And that life cannot be defeated.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hebrews 13.17 was often used in those early days, "Obey the ones leading you and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who will give an account."

Yes...

Look at Joseph... His beginning was awful... But his end was wonderful.

It's not how we begin our race my brother... It's how we finish our race.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Unfortunately, many LC elders only believe they need to "give an account" to LSM.

Each one is responsible for themselves.

Be responsible for yourself before the Lord.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Be careful how you trust the brothers in Austin!

I try my brother... And by God's mercy, I have brothers I can fellowship with about all matters as the Lord leads.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I do have this Spirit of reality and believe these truths.

Amen... Now what is important is how you apply this reality... Will you do so in and for the Lord?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here may I protest, being an older brother in the Lord, and speaking from the wisdom of scriptures?

I try to listen to all that a person is telling me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul told Timothy that, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." The scripture does not just instruct us to "seek His face, behold His glory, and dwell in His house," it also provides much admonition. (I Cor 10.11)

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Ohio

For example, Acts 20.30 warns us of those like Witness Lee who "speak perverted things and draw the disciples after them." Perhaps you ignored that warning I spoke in a previous post.

Witness Lee has been dead for over 20 years. He can speak nothing. Dead people cannot speak.

He is no threat to me.

And as long as I continously seek the Lord, and hold to what scripture tells me, and follow the leading of the Spirit, I'll be walking in the light of God and have fellowship with Him and other believers.

When it comes to his ministry... I am fine with what brother Lee has presented.

As a human... I didn't know him, so I have nothing to say about the brother.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Originally Posted by Ohio

3 John 9 warned us of those like Diotrephes who "loved to be first among the brothers."

For sure... So did Jesus.

But we all have natural ambition my brother... Towards one thing or another, and to one degree or another.

And so, yes... Always keep watch.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I have seen many children of God over the years damaged by this ministry, should I not warn others to be careful?

Absolutely... But do so in life... By abiding in and speaking out of your regenerated spirit.

Not in death, by speaking in and out of the offended feelings of your fallen natural man.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And once you know better, are you not also responsible?

My brother... Don't think to know what I know.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Steel

"...marginalized and expelled..." from what?

Every born again believer in Christ is... Well... IN... CHRIST... Eternally.

And corporately... The entire church is... IN... Christ.

And Christ doesn't marginalize or expell any believer.

So, again... Marginalized and expelled from what?

I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches. Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.
The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

I believe the points Ohio was trying to make to Steel is that whistleblowing tends to result in a person and their family in being shunned and expelled. The fallout from being shunned is the issues at hand become marginalized.

I was clear on that.

But my response was focused on "...being shunned and expelled..." from what?

A particular meeting of believers in the local church (local church being all believers in an area)?

Whose problem would that be if before the Lord those who were "...being shunned and expelled..." were actually standing in the Lord... And those doing the shunning and expelling were not doing so in the Lord?

Not mine if it were related to me.

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

People have problems with being shunned and expelled because they are holding to their vanity and not Christ.

Matthew 5:10... "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens."

Matthew 5:11... "Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me."

Originally Posted by Terry

Given Christ doesn't marginalize or expel any believer, but receiving everyone is not practiced in the local churches.

Well... Welcome to the way of the fallen man that corrupts us all... Us all being all of us born again believers in Christ.

Originally Posted by Terry

Ones who may have been shunned or marginalized may become unwelcome for fellowship and may even be escorted out when attempting to meet with a given locality.

Oh boohoo.

Suck it up, take the way of the cross... Be brought into resurrection life... And rejoice all the way through the next door that the Lord opens for you.

Originally Posted by Terry

The alternative of saying go meet with another assembly is easy to say, but not easy to do for ones whose Christian fellowship has been primarily among the local churches.

And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Shoot...

If I could I'd just rent the building next door to the building I was just escorted from and carry on with the Lord without loosing a step... Make it easy for anyone else who suffers the same... Same ministry speaking... Same recovered way... With the hope that the Lord would in His mercy and grace save myself and any I meet with from becoming religious also.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Steel

I'd simply say "Amen, Lord... You open doors and You close doors... Lord, I'll wait on You to open another door... And do so praising You and rejoicing in You."

And why?

Because they have been following their own natural preference/affinity... And not the Lord.

Which is why the Lord comes in and removes believers from their familiar, comfortable, preferred environments.

Amen! One door closes and another door opens.

You ask and why? Loved ones I know. Parents, family friends etc who have been in the fellowship of local churches for 40-50 years. That's where the bulk of their Christian experience lies. Realize or not, the ground of locality teaching does have it's hold. The question would be asked, "where would I go?".
Yes, I'm aware of the "familiar, comfortable, preferred environments." That's one of the traits I seem to notice about denominations. Whether one is raised as a Lutheran, a Baptist, or in the Local Churches, there is willingness to meet apart from those places of fellowship.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Terry

...Loved ones I know. Parents, family friends etc who have been in the fellowship of local churches for 40-50 years. That's where the bulk of their Christian experience lies.

That's behind them... The Lord is in front of them... What is there about Philippians 3:13... "...Forgetting the things which are abehind and stretching forward to the things which are before,... pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called..." that isn't clear... Or should be ignored?

Originally Posted by Terry

...Realize or not, the ground of locality teaching does have it's hold.

Because people allow themselves to be imprisoned by their own preferences towards things... "...teaching..." has no way to "...hold..." anyone... Unfortunately... When we stop holding to Christ we become confused about this.

Originally Posted by Terry

...The question would be asked, "where would I go?".
Yes, I'm aware of the "familiar, comfortable, preferred environments." That's one of the traits I seem to notice about denominations. Whether one is raised as a Lutheran, a Baptist, or in the Local Churches, there is willingness to meet apart from those places of fellowship.

On the road I presently live on, and have lived on for a few years, there are three meeting halls related to three different non-denomination denominations (who knows what to call this organizations these days)... And to my knowledge there is no fellowship between any of them... And the same goes for yet another group just half a mile away on another road... A group that has no problem breaking the law by placing folded plastic signs out on the highway that we're close to (not sure what that says about what they teach regarding the things of God).

Terry... I've personally witnessed/experienced the divisiveness that goes on in Christianity... And know that, although oftened denied, it is completely acceptable to have a disposition of divisiveness within Christianity.