Whistleblower

[Drake]

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

-2 Nell,>”Not so. In fact, the Lord left it in the hands of THE CHURCH.”

Ok. Do that then. This forum is not a church.

Drake

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior. Anyone who has ever sat through a Witness Lee message, or purchased a Living Stream Ministry publication has a vested interested in this matter...that is...THE CHURCH.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior.

Nell

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

So far, Drake, the only one berating brothers and sisters ... is you. You continue to berate we forum members as slanderers, members of the Body of Christ...the universal church...for sounding the alarm.

Regardless, the protection is on the side of the innocents who are or were victims of the predators, both then and now. You seem to have lost sight of that. Paul charged the Corinthians (below) to deliver the sinning brother to the devil for the salvation of his soul. We are charged to treat them as heathen and publican, that is, preach the gospel to them.

As bad as their sin is, the Lord in his Word still makes a way for the vilest offender to have a path back to Him...for the salvation of his soul. These vile offenders are possibly our brothers, too. By covering Philip Lee's sin, his own father abandoned him in his state. That is a horrible tragedy as well to leave these men in their sin. Benson and Ray didn't love BenM enough to try to rescue him. They exiled him and left him in his sinful state...and look what happened. Do you really want to be seen as one who would protect these men rather than the women they abuse?

There is plenty of tragedy in this horrible situation, but my heart remains to blow the whistle and stop the downward spiral of sinning men who prey on women IN THE CHURCH, not cover it up.

Nell

[Drake]

-1

Nell,

Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it.

Why aren’t you doing that?

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

Well, neither do you. Who appointed you as the ultimate authority on what is the church and what is not? Under your definition Facebook is also the church.

Now what?

Better to base your belief on the biblical definition of a local church or the church universal. A public forum where Christians slander and berate other believers is not a church by biblical arrangement nor in the Spirit of Christ. Christ will present a bride to Himself that spotless and without blemish through His cleansing and washing and anyone with even a little discernment knows that the railing accusations you promote here day after day strongly resemble the tactics of the evil one.

Drake

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

How would you know... Do you know that all who participate on this forum are born again eternally saved believers who are in Christ? . . . Has there been some sort of guaranteed authentication processing carried out? . . . No, Nell... This online forum, and any other online forum is... NOT... a gathering of the church that is in Christ... In the sense/context spoken to in scripture... Which is that of being in the physical company of another/others.

So your above speaking in absolutely in error.

Originally Posted by Nell

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior. Anyone who has ever sat through a Witness Lee message, or purchased a Living Stream Ministry publication has a vested interested in this matter...that is...THE CHURCH.

Nell

And above we see more error... Which is understandable... As error can only produce more error.

First... The context related to "...tell it to the church.." is that of the related local church in which the matter was taking place... Second... Contrary to what Nell says above... Not everyone here "... are witnesses to the whole matter."... Third... Nell is out of place to say that "...We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior."... Fourth... To have a "...vested interest..." in any matter is to be of the thinking that you have some sort of investment in a matter, and are interested in gaining a profit from this investment.

Now the first three errors of Nell made clear... The fourth is what I'd like to speak on as it concernes a matter that I have been considering before the Lord regarding brothers and sisters who participate on this website... This matter being... Why do we do it?... What is our "...vested interest..."?

Two possible reasonins could be that... 1... We hold to the belief that we have in some way "...invested..." something of our person (belief, trust, effort, time, money) in related things and feel obligated to protect our investment... and 2... We hold to the belief that we in some way need to realize a profit from this investment we have made.

Thing is... As slaves... We are in error to think we have made any type of investment in anything... Or that we are obligated to protect it... And also... That we need to realize a profit from anything that we are, or have been, a part of... The only one who has a "...vested interest..." and has the right to receive a profit is the Master of us slaves.

And notice in Nell's above speaking is nothing that points to this truth... None of her speaking points to Christ Jesus... Just herself and the church.

Sure... She does use the term "...the Lord's church..." but it is in context to the members of His church... Not Him... At least in a direct sense.

I wonder if Nell, or others here, have considered what the Lord's... Our Lord's... Vested interest is in this website... And what He desires to profit from it.

[Nell]

My Larry Nassar Testimony Went Viral. But There’s More to the Gospel Than Forgiveness.

Article in Christianity Today, January, 2018

Former gymnast Rachael Denhollander spent years discovering God’s perspective on sexual abuse. Then her advocacy for survivors cost her her church.

INTERVIEW BY MORGAN LEE| JANUARY 31, 2018

"...Yes. Church is one of the least safe places to acknowledge abuse because the way it is counseled is, more often than not, damaging to the victim. There is an abhorrent lack of knowledge for the damage and devastation that sexual assault brings. It is with deep regret that I say the church is one of the worst places to go for help. That’s a hard thing to say, because I am a very conservative evangelical, but that is the truth. There are very, very few who have ever found true help in the church. ... " (emphasis added)

This is an excellent interview by one of the Nassar victims and the response of the church to what happened to her.

Nell

[Nell]

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_...an_Environment

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_...an_Environment

I'm friends with a sister who as a young child was sexually molested by her father ... a Baptist missionary in Pakistan.

Tchividjian is right. It really screw up her head for the rest of her life. It needs to stop, and covering it up only makes it worse.

Thanks Nell.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment
(also called GRACE or G.R.A.C.E) is a Virginia 501(c)(3) non-profit organization formed by Basyle "Boz" Tchividjian to assist evangelical groups in confronting sexual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, within their organizations.[1][2] Tchividjian is the grandson of Billy Graham and a law professor at Liberty University, who formerly worked as a prosecutor on sexual abuse cases.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godly_...an_Environment

Nell, thanks for this post. I looked at the Wiki article, which interested me:

In the early 2000s, Tchividjian became convinced that Protestant institutions had not properly addressed incidents of sexual abuse, incidents that he believed would eventually lead to scandals similar to those that had damaged the Catholic Church.

In Tchividjian's view, the legalistic, authoritarian culture of some Protestant organizations was particularly susceptible to what he called "spiritual abuse" — the attempt of religious leaders to silence victims or convince them that they deserved their abuse Tchividjian has stated that, "When it comes to child sexual abuse, too many churches and Christian organizations prefer to sacrifice individuals in order to protect themselves. We end up living out the very antithesis of the Gospel that we preach. The consequences are devastating."

GRACE began in 2003 when a reporter called Tchividjian about a case of sexual abuse mishandled by a pastor.

Sounds all too familiar.

.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds all too familiar.

Yep... For sure when looking at the entirety of folly Christianity.