Taped conversation between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee circa 1977/8

[aron]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I don't personally know anyone impacted by Daystar, but this conversation doesn't sound like a leader, never mind a Christian leader, or MOTA! Huge red flag.

As the leader of an organization and its finances, I would never speak as Lee did in this clip. If I did, I would hope that I would be held to the highest scrutiny and asked to step down from my position.


Lee - "None of your business"

Lee - "No responsibility to answer anyone about this"

Lee - "I must say a word to you, this is too much, too much"

Lee - "The Ministry is my personal ministry" (NOT how ministry works, NOT how non-profits work!)

Sal - "Brother Lee it's not that simple, I just can't see why you evading, because it gives me the sense of something being dark."

Lee - "You have overstepping, you have overstepped your limit, you see? You have no right to ask me about the Living Stream Account. No that is not your (uh) standing."

This is unreal, must listen to entire clip.

Looking back, one of the most striking features of the Nee/Lee programme is the discrepancy between what is assiduously taught, and what is actually practiced by leadership and underlings.

I read a book "Elder's Training" by Witness Lee and he kept going over and over how everything was "for the body" and every decision had to be made with the good of the body in view.

But if anyone tried to point out to Lee (or his underlings) what damage was being done to others by his decisions, they'd would clamp down: "None of your business" or "my personal affairs".

Both Daystar and the installation of Philip Lee as LSM office manager come to mind. In each case, what was taught was blatantly disregarded in personal practice. There are apparently clearly delineated Local Church expectations for everyone, and then there's the Untouchable at the top, who can ignore everything that he's "training" his disciples to live like.

It's hard to imagine how the discrepancy could be any more glaring. And there's probably a cultural element here as well, as the Dong family did the same thing in Brasil. When family or personal activities were raised, which stumbled the rank-and-file, the answer was, "I have no heart to discuss this", and any further questioning was treated as attack or rebellion.

How is this not noticeable by the rank-and-file members? It is so obvious to those outside the system.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Looking back, one of the most striking features of the Nee/Lee programme is the discrepancy between what is assiduously taught, and what is actually practiced by leadership and underlings.

I read a book "Elder's Training" by Witness Lee and he kept going over and over how everything was "for the body" and every decision had to be made with the good of the body in view.

But if anyone tried to point out to Lee (or his underlings) what damage was being done to others by his decisions, they'd would clamp down: "None of your business" or "my personal affairs".

Both Daystar and the installation of Philip Lee as LSM office manager come to mind. In each case, what was taught was blatantly disregarded in personal practice. There are apparently clearly delineated Local Church expectations for everyone, and then there's the Untouchable at the top, who can ignore everything that he's "training" his disciples to live like.

It's hard to believe that someone as seasoned as dear brother Drake could be so naive as to the effects this would have upon the general LC population. Lee taught us for decades that he was different, he was better, he alone was upright regarding the high standards for ministers of the New Covenant. We believed him and unreservedly bought into his program.

Lee taught us that all Christianity had failed, had become degraded, had become hopeless and helplessly divided. They were satanic, demonic, and Christless. He derided them continuously, from the top to the bottom. He used their failures to highlight the dramatic contrast with the "Recovery," the Lord's "testimony," the unique N.T. churchlife on the "proper ground" of oneness.

We also believed his word games. Christianity had those horrible "pastors," but we had "co-workers and full-timers." They "went to church," but we "went to meetings." They had the "low" gospel, but we had "God's Economy." They had those evil controlling "denominations," but we had the the "high peak ministry of oneness." They were merely "Christians," but we were the "saints" of God! Life was so good! The differences were endless. There was no end to the contrasts and criticisms which Lee had for the greater body of Christ.

Then, after every storm, "leaks" would occur. Rumors and whispers were heard. Brother Lee would then assure us it was all "fake news" from ambitious and rebellious lepers. For shame, for shame. Can't they just bear the cross? Can't they just "leave like gentlemen?" Nothing here folks, just move along! Life in the enchanted, emerald city of "Ozaheim" is all good. See all'ya'all at the next training. Hallelujah for Christ and the Church!

Then the internet "Toto" pulled back the curtain for all to see.

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

[UntoHim]

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post. If there is no confirmation whatsoever forthcoming in a timely manner, the most serious claims will be edited.
UntoHim
Forum ADMIN
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Here is the transcript of that infamous phone call between Sal Benoit and Witness Lee circa fall of 1978
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
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Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything....

Hi,
I know you are not a young man now, just based on that post. I don’t know you personally, but just want say a couple things:

I know it’s probably been very difficult to come up here and write these things if it’s all true as you claim. You know, carrying things like these for decades is a hard process, and exposing them is even harder. When you know the truth, but you live a lie is demoralizing. I feel extremely bad for your brother, must be difficult for you to deal with it also, and I’m not sure if your pops are still alive to see the suffering. I pray that God gives you strength not to take the same route, but expose this system for what it is, especially if you have the facts. There are people here and all over, who need help from men who know this system from inside, to step up and speak up. I pray for you, and may God give you strength and wisdom to speak out. It’s better to have peace with the Almighty, that to keep silence for the sake of peace with crooks.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post.

Does it make more sense to let the post stand as-is but simply have a response such as yours immediately following stating that the claims need to be confirmed or backed up? If you edit it, then people who read it after the timeframe you have in mind will not have the chance to corroborate or not. Maybe someone in a year will come across the thread and be able to confirm.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

None of this sounds fabricated. Bits and pieces of corroborating evidence have been posted by other witnesses over the years on various internet venues.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

None of this sounds fabricated. Bits and pieces of corroborating evidence have been posted by other witnesses over the years on various internet venues.

All of this has been there in fragments for anyone who bothered to look. Don Rutledge, an eyewitness and intimate of the inner circle, said that Daystar was for Witness Lee's son Timothy. It wasn't a burden of the Lord to the prophet but rather the request of a wealth-seeking family member.

Regarding Watchman Nee, when he resumed public ministry after WL managed to restore him, he called for a practice of "handing over" of possessions to his ministry's aegis. But did he himself hand over? No, in fact he was a businessman. And notice who he was in business with: his brother. Family. It was a guanxi network.

How much of the handing over went to training centres, full-timers, gospel tracts, and how much right into the Nee family business? We do know that he got in trouble with the church leadership for his personal business dealings with his brother. Another piece of evidence: we also know that when the communists took over WN and his inner cadre moved 'ownership' of possessions to 63 church members, to hide the fact that they were wealthy property owners. Where did all that property come from? From his business, or from the "handing over"?

Nobody knows, because nobody talks in the LC. But all the pieces are there, plain to see.

Everyone who knows, also knows that if and when the smoke ever cleared, after the communist persecutions, all those 63 loyal property-receivers would then have to hand it back over to WN. It was his own personal business, just like with WL and Daystar, according to the tape of the Sal Benoit phone call.

Then there's the Dong family in Brasil... the pattern is unmistakable. The church is a vehicle to pad the family nest. Anyone who notices gets booted, and the rest try very, very hard not to notice.

[Matt Anderson]

I had to read through this thread a couple of times after reading how some of the more serious claims about this taped conversation had not been established/corroborated.

First of all, the transcript and the diagram were both done by me.

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

The diagram was generated solely based on the content of the taped conversation. I listened to the conversation closely, transcribed it and analyzed it using my understanding of corporate law and fraud under US law. My knowledge on these topics is not advanced, but I know the essentials.

Based on my analysis, I put together the diagram so that those listening to (or reading) the conversation could map the impact of what was being said.

As for corroboration, I have personally met with two brothers who were present at the time of this call. One of them was in the room with Sal when the call to Lee happened. The other was in the next room and participated in some discussion after the call.

So, I know by the mouth of two witnesses that the call happened and that the substance of the call matches the recording.

So, my question is this to "whom it may concern". What serious claim has been made that has not been established?

Thanks,
Matt

[UntoHim]

Matt,
Here is the post of concern (#27 by Unregistered Guest)

Originally Posted by Unregistered

i was in hall 1 then 2 then greensboro, then boston. i paid for the tax exempt papers for boston, which i took them back when sal shared the tape with me the same day he recorded it. i knew lee was crooked, his son was sleeping with an elders wife in anaheim and daystar investors that lost everything. the daystar money was used on mansions and other luxuries in taiwan. the money was invested in indoor tennis racket company his son owned. overseas christian stewards was the fake unregistered corp lee, chang and another crook used to funnel money out of san francisco to taiwan. my father was the treasurer in denver. he saw cash handed to the elders. my brother was in charge of literature in spokane. he read all the stuff no one was supposed to see. he committed suicide.

bill lawson, john so are phonies. they sat down when i told them to stop lying in boston about the tape and sal. God will be their judge.

I then posted this:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm going to let this post stand as is for the time being, however I would appreciate it if there are people out their who could confirm the most serious claims in this post. If there is no confirmation whatsoever forthcoming in a timely manner, the most serious claims will be edited.
UntoHim
Forum ADMIN

In my view, "the most serious claims" would be Philip Lee sleeping with an elders wife, and also that this poster's brother committed suicide after reading "all the stuff no one was supposed to see". If this was coming from an established, credible forum member I would not be as concerned, however, it is coming from a Unregistered Guest who, thus far, has not provided any further collaboration. I have asked anyone who has collaborating information to post it here on this thread. I will leave my interpretation of "in a timely manner" off the board for now.
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[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I had to read through this thread a couple of times after reading how some of the more serious claims about this taped conversation had not been established/corroborated.

First of all, the transcript and the diagram were both done by me.

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...-PhoneCall.pdf
http://www.laymansfellowship.com/pub...chInBoston.pdf

The diagram was generated solely based on the content of the taped conversation. I listened to the conversation closely, transcribed it and analyzed it using my understanding of corporate law and fraud under US law. My knowledge on these topics is not advanced, but I know the essentials.

Based on my analysis, I put together the diagram so that those listening to (or reading) the conversation could map the impact of what was being said.

As for corroboration, I have personally met with two brothers who were present at the time of this call. One of them was in the room with Sal when the call to Lee happened. The other was in the next room and participated in some discussion after the call.

So, I know by the mouth of two witnesses that the call happened and that the substance of the call matches the recording.

So, my question is this to "whom it may concern". What serious claim has been made that has not been established?

Thanks,
Matt

Still looking for the audio.

Nell