How the LCM Affects Personality

[Trapped]

Another example that isn't related to being submissive, but relates to an incredibly common exchange that saints have that bleeds into other areas of life:

Saint A: "Hi Saint B, how was the [meeting/conference/training/retreat/gathering/whatever]?"
Saint B: "Oh it was really good!!"
Saint A: "Oh good!"
Saint B: "Yeah! Yeah. yep....."
Saint A: "Good....okay...."

....and both saints drift away from the conversation because it had no foundation to begin with.

Sometimes I intentionally press saints past the "it was really good" answer and say (not in a sarcastic way), "Oh yeah? So like what exactly was good?" The answer is usually pretty short and is basically a few words about what their brain can quickly remember about the overall topic. I think a lot endure the meetings so they can get to the social aspect of conferences, etc.

A saint who had been serving for a few years told me that when they decided to stop serving and get a job that they went on a interview and the interviewer asked them "So how has your summer been?" And the saint....as they had done countless times before....said out of reflex, "Oh, it's been good!" And stopped at that. And the interviewer looked at them like.....that's it? And the saint snapped out of their church-life-mode and remembered they were in the real world where people actually give details and have actual conversational back-and-forth exchanges.

[Trapped]

I'll throw my own in. The self-imposed passivity. To this day I am scared to initiate anything in my own life, including small things like calling people up to go hang out, all the way to bigger things like what job to go for or what medium-to-large changes I should make in my life, because of the deep-seated negative implication that that is something initiated by me and not by the Lord. I know this should be balanced in that we should bring the Lord into things, but it ends up being paralyzing. I’ve never been allowed to express what I want, or have an interest in things, or have a goal to strive for (it might replace the Lord!!!) that as an adult I am still prevented from those things. Or, if I do, they are accompanied by guilt and shame and fear.

When I was in high school the serving ones told us that we should never ever make a big decision like choosing what college to go to without including the Lord in the decision. They told us to sit down alone in our rooms and write down the names of the colleges we were considering and pray over the list to see where the Lord would lead us. Well, terrified of making a big decision without the Lord and afraid of the repercussions if I didn't, I did just that, only I got no leading or feeling or direction at all. After agonizing about it I finally gave up and just went where I wanted to go. I talked to another church kid a year or two ago who said something similar.....they said they were worried about doing anything of their own initiative but chased the Lord's feeling to no avail and said "eventually I just had to do what makes me happy".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'll throw my own in. The self-imposed passivity. To this day I am scared to initiate anything in my own life, including small things like calling people up to go hang out, all the way to bigger things like what job to go for or what medium-to-large changes I should make in my life, because of the deep-seated negative implication that that is something initiated by me and not by the Lord. I know this should be balanced in that we should bring the Lord into things, but it ends up being paralyzing. I’ve never been allowed to express what I want, or have an interest in things, or have a goal to strive for (it might replace the Lord!!!) that as an adult I am still prevented from those things. Or, if I do, they are accompanied by guilt and shame and fear.

Passivity is something I have struggled with for a long time. The LCM taught everyone that they should "wait on the Lord" for everything, and sometimes that meant hesitating in even the smallest of decisions. I have thus had the tendency to always look at the potential negative outcomes of a decision and then fail to make a decision at all, which in many cases ends up being worse than making a wrong decision.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

When I was in high school the serving ones told us that we should never ever make a big decision like choosing what college to go to without including the Lord in the decision. They told us to sit down alone in our rooms and write down the names of the colleges we were considering and pray over the list to see where the Lord would lead us.

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

Which brothers?

Elders? Titus?

I can picture someone saying the first half, but the last point ....""brothers" will tell me where I will go "" ....is odd. Well anyway, what is the rest of the story? Did they tell you where you would you go? You told them you wanted to be a Buckeye and they told you " no instead you will go to Harvard".??

I can picture brothers saying " Brother Ohio, you might be able to sink shots from 3 point land all day long and OSU could use a hot hand like yours, but you are in the Lord's army, and you need to prepare yourself to be useful to Him, so pray and consider then let's get together and fellowship about it. In the end, it is your decision but we feel you should open to our fellowship. " Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Which brothers?

Elders? Titus?

Drake

No. Not Titus or the Cleveland elders.

The brother who told me that was referring to "those brothers who were one with Max Rapoport, who was one with Brother Lee's burden."

At one point they were on different sides of the meeting hall, and the brothers one with BroMax who was one with BruLee were shouting at Titus and the elders to "let my people go."

Chaos. Instigated by WL. Yet Max was made the scapegoat.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No. Not Titus or the Cleveland elders.

The brother who told me that was referring to "those brothers who were one with Max Rapoport, who was one with Brother Lee's burden."

At one point they were on different sides of the meeting hall, and the brothers one with BroMax who was one with BruLee were shouting at Titus and the elders to "let my people go."

Chaos. Instigated by WL. Yet Max was made the scapegoat.

Thanks.

In 78, I was in a meeting just after Max had visited a certain locality giving a conference. I did not see Max. However the brothers were all a buzz saying that Max at one point threw the Bible physically across the floor saying "we do not need dead letters". I remember that many seemed to approve of his illustration and one even reiterated it in a meeting (fortunately he did throw the Bible as Max did else I would have reacted). Privately others told me they disagreed with Max and that he should not have done that and that it had caused a problem. I mentioned the incident to the elders in my locality and they indicated that it was wholly inappropriate and that Brother Lee was aware and was about to correct that situation. Shortly after, Max was dismissed. And the locality I visited? Some followed Max out, including the lead elder, and others started to rebuild. There was and is much latitude in the Lord's recovery and many tried to take advantage of that.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I can picture someone saying the first half, but the last point ....""brothers" will tell me where I will go "" ....is odd. Well anyway, what is the rest of the story? Did they tell you where you would you go? You told them you wanted to be a Buckeye and they told you " no instead you will go to Harvard".??

I can picture brothers saying " Brother Ohio, you might be able to sink shots from 3 point land all day long and OSU could use a hot hand like yours, but you are in the Lord's army, and you need to prepare yourself to be useful to Him, so pray and consider then let's get together and fellowship about it. In the end, it is your decision but we feel you should open to our fellowship. " Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Drake

None of that was discussed.

You're far too "reasonable" Drake.

Back in 1977 you were just a baby duckling, sheltered from the Anaheim wolves.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

When I was a single brother I had heard roughly the same thing in regard to marriage. "You remain single until you're ready for marriage."

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Terry

When I was a single brother I had heard roughly the same thing in regard to marriage. "You remain single until you're ready for marriage."

LOL as if you'll ever be ready when you're never allowed to talk to sisters

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

LOL as if you'll ever be ready when you're never allowed to talk to sisters

You're ready when the brothers say you're ready. What could be simpler than that.

Banners for the summer training:

1. Leadership is always right.
2. God's leading is always through God's anointed leadership. Remember, only one anointed leadership per age! Don't be ambitious!
3. Leadership is never wrong.
4. Being one with God means being one with the brothers. Practical oneness with God's deputy authority.

Let's all read the banners together with an exercised spirit. Don't be hardened.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Clearly this couple have a co-dependent personality. Whether caused by the local church or not is the question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly this couple have a co-dependent personally. Whether caused by the local church or not is the question.

Do you mean personality?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you mean personality?

Yes. Changed it. Thanks.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Underline and bolding my emphasis.
Trapped, it could be when "responsible brothers" use the phrase fellowship you might as well reinsert with the word feeling or opinion. That's what it amounts to. In my opinion, brothers who meddled in the first place simply don't care; if it was their motive to persuade the couple to move there.
I believe the concept is wrong to think the brother's fellowship equates to the Lord's leading.
What if through prayer the Lord's leading doesn't equate to the brother's fellowship?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

One stipulation for Full-Timers in the LCM is to abrogate their own ability to choose where they will live or how they will serve.

This has created a terrible conflict in many of those who desired to serve the Lord.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

In my personal experience, as a church kid, it is difficult to have any real direction in life when pursuing any direction is represented to you for your whole growing up years as replacing the Lord/an idol/doing things your own way/chasing after things that are all going to burn anyway. It's hard to put energy toward anything or be excited or passionate about something when doing so has been so condemned. It's a great path directly to depression.

Originally Posted by Freedom

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

This is it exactly. Going against the brothers' fellowship is painted as going against the Lord. Problems ensue!

On a small scale, at one point "the brothers" had to make a decision that affected my daily life (this was not unsolicited fellowship or meddling....because of my certain situation I asked them and was looking to them for a solution that they were rightfully on the hook for....it is hard to explain without getting more specific). The fellowship came back that "the brothers feel good about XYZ solution" and upon hearing it I immediately realized that that fellowship was unequivocally the worst possible solution they could have come up with. (There was one vital piece of information they were not aware of that I’m sure would have changed their decision). I realized then that their "feeling" was not the Lord's "feeling", because the Lord would never EVER have led anyone to "feel good" about that solution, regardless of what they know. I then realized their "feeling" is only based on information they know, which means it's just from their mind or from their experience, rather than from the Lord's feeling. For someone who lived for decades under the impression that the brothers' fellowship is from God's lips through their lips to our ears.....that shook me, and I realized the absurdity of listening, without my own independent thought, to these people who otherwise have no daily or personal involvement/interest in my life.