How Not To Be Deceived By Cults (Even Christian Ones)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

None of these points are biblical.

1. When there’s always a study guide -- John made it clear we are not to add anything to the NT nor are we to take anything away from it.
2. An unteachable spirit — If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1Tim 6:3, For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 2Tim 4:3
3. Interpreting scripture with teaching — Peter says that no verse is of its own interpretation, but the Bible has to be understood in the light of many other Bible verses.
4. A starstruck and spellbound following — 16Be not deceived, my beloved brethren. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning. James 1:16-17 If you are drawn away into a cult you are being deceived, one possible deception is that the good and perfect gifts are from the “man of God” rather than from God himself.
5. Using self interest as bait — “each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust an enticed” James 1:14 — if you are in a cult you are “drawn away” and this is due to your “own lust” or self interest being used as the bait to draw you away.
6. Exclusivism -- Paul rebukes Peter of exclusivism in Galatians
7. No regard for sound doctrine -- quoted from Timothy
8. Focus on man, ourselves, our ministry — rather than Jesus -- based on the Lord's word in the gospels about searching the scripture but not coming to Him, and those that say "Lord, Lord, yet He never knew them".
9. Self deception 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. James 1:22 — Self deception in James 1 is in the context of “being drawn away” in verse 14 and “being deceived” in verse 16. Finally, in verse 26 it talks about a man that “deceiveth his heart” in the context of religion that is not pure or undefiled, i.e. a cult.
10. An independent spirit -- he defines this as "Living nomadically" -- which is condemned in Hebrews which tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the custom of some is.

Perhaps you meant to say "all of these points are scriptural".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. When there’s always a study guide -- John made it clear we are not to add anything to the NT nor are we to take anything away from it.
2. An unteachable spirit — If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 1Tim 6:3, For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 2Tim 4:3
3. Interpreting scripture with teaching — Peter says that no verse is of its own interpretation, but the Bible has to be understood in the light of many other Bible verses.
4. A starstruck and spellbound following — 16Be not deceived, my beloved brethren. 17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning. James 1:16-17 If you are drawn away into a cult you are being deceived, one possible deception is that the good and perfect gifts are from the “man of God” rather than from God himself.
5. Using self interest as bait — “each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust an enticed” James 1:14 — if you are in a cult you are “drawn away” and this is due to your “own lust” or self interest being used as the bait to draw you away.
6. Exclusivism -- Paul rebukes Peter of exclusivism in Galatians
7. No regard for sound doctrine -- quoted from Timothy
8. Focus on man, ourselves, our ministry — rather than Jesus -- based on the Lord's word in the gospels about searching the scripture but not coming to Him, and those that say "Lord, Lord, yet He never knew them".
9. Self deception 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves. James 1:22 — Self deception in James 1 is in the context of “being drawn away” in verse 14 and “being deceived” in verse 16. Finally, in verse 26 it talks about a man that “deceiveth his heart” in the context of religion that is not pure or undefiled, i.e. a cult.
10. An independent spirit -- he defines this as "Living nomadically" -- which is condemned in Hebrews which tells us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together as the custom of some is.

Perhaps you meant to say "all of these points are scriptural".

These interpretations are mostly out of context with some quite strange views such as the one that using study guides is 'adding to the bible'. If that is the case then the KJV is a cult bible because it has added so many words not in the original Greek or Hebrew. The fact is that the bible nowhere prohibits the use of study guides and for this reason Todds and your view is unbiblical.

None of these verses mentioned actually apply to cults. For example you have liberally extended James 1.22 to apply to cults which goes beyond the stated context of self deception. There is nothing in the text or context that indicates it should apply to cult deception which is about being deceived by others, not the self.

Point 6 is another failed attempt at testing for a cult because if I recall this was about hypocrisy, fear and Judaism...not cult exclusivity.

The last point about independence is puzzling because I would have thought that people who are attracted to cults would not have an independent free thinking mind but rather one that cannot think for itself and must rely on others to think for them.

Todd has merely pulled some ideas together and made some claims about them applying to cults.
Overall these points as presented are a false dichotomy because a person could meet all 10 criteria and yet not be in a cult. Each point should be considered as standalone and there is nothing in the bible that suggests they can be tied together as a test for cults.

Worryingly these 10 points fail to mention any of the biblical tests of spirits and fruit but instead replaces them with manmade opinions such as that study guides are wrong. If that were true then every theologian is in a cult if they always turn to their Greek concordance and other study guides.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

These interpretations are mostly out of context with some quite strange views such as the one that using study guides is 'adding to the bible'. If that is the case then the KJV is a cult bible because it has added so many words not in the original Greek or Hebrew. The fact is that the bible nowhere prohibits the use of study guides and for this reason Todds and your view is unbiblical.

I agree that the use of study guides is pretty much universal so it is a very strange criteria and also not very useful. I would prefer using the Bible prohibition about adding to or taking away. We use that today to identify a few cults.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

None of these verses mentioned actually apply to cults. For example you have liberally extended James 1.22 to apply to cults which goes beyond the stated context of self deception. There is nothing in the text or context that indicates it should apply to cult deception which is about being deceived by others, not the self.

I'll respond in a separate post

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Point 6 is another failed attempt at testing for a cult because if I recall this was about hypocrisy, fear and Judaism...not cult exclusivity.

On the contrary I understand the Judaizers to be the NT example of a "cult", "religion", "synagogue of Satan" and the book of James is the light he got to see through these deceptions.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The last point about independence is puzzling because I would have thought that people who are attracted to cults would not have an independent free thinking mind but rather one that cannot think for itself and must rely on others to think for them.

I think we need to broaden our view, false prophets lead astray, if there is one narrow way that leads to life then there are an infinite ways that would lead you astray from that way.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Todd has merely pulled some ideas together and made some claims about them applying to cults.
Overall these points as presented are a false dichotomy because a person could meet all 10 criteria and yet not be in a cult. Each point should be considered as standalone and there is nothing in the bible that suggests they can be tied together as a test for cults.

All 10? I imagine a typical cult might not meet all 10, I would think that would be hard to find.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Worryingly these 10 points fail to mention any of the biblical tests of spirits and fruit but instead replaces them with manmade opinions such as that study guides are wrong. If that were true then every theologian is in a cult if they always turn to their Greek concordance and other study guides.

I agree that many are not very useful. Study guide for one, interpreting scripture with teaching, etc. I doubt this would really help someone who is in a cult.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

None of these verses mentioned actually apply to cults. For example you have liberally extended James 1.22 to apply to cults which goes beyond the stated context of self deception. There is nothing in the text or context that indicates it should apply to cult deception which is about being deceived by others, not the self.

James explains why we are deceived.

1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.

God is not here finding fault, on the contrary our experience in being deceived showed we had some basic failings and if we pray God will provide the wisdom we need. Likewise if you are stuck in a cult or are unsure if you are.

1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

You can’t be in a cult without questioning the things you see. Did you question that without wavering, or when you were told that focusing on the negative things is “death” did you get driven by the wind and tossed?

1:7-8 For let not that man think he shall receive anything of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You must decide conscience or cult. Those that are seduced into a cult are later ashamed because they know they ignored their conscience.

Referring to saints as being “rich” in the word, or in life is a major red flag. V.9-10

The reason people get ensnared into a cult is we were drawn away by our own lusts. Perhaps the idea that you were special or better than other Christians was the lure. Any discussion of special revelation, special blessing, or proper ground is a major red flag. V. 14-15

Those in a cult will ask “how could this be false if the teachings are good” know that “every good gift is from above”. The “truths” didn’t come from the cult leader, the truths came from God.

“Be ye doers of the word not hearers only” v. 22. Just as women are saved through child bearing, and it is through bearing fruit that you will be my disciples in deed. Being a doer of the word protects us from cults.

Pure religion is to visit the fatherless and widows v.27. If you are not doing that then your worship is not pure.

Pure religion is to keep yourself unspotted from the world. Many cults scam the members into business interests run by the leaders.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. When you study cults there is always the respect of certain persons, the inner circle, the key brothers, etc. That is essentially the definition of cult.

James made mistakes because the other saints in the Body had faith in the Lord Jesus with respect of persons, James. As a result James can get the vision to say this word.

I imagine the early church may have also had the same opinion towards James that I had towards WL. He is the "brother of Jesus, surely we can trust his judgment".

James 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. Confusion and evil work are major warnings.

3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

The various business dealings that cults are involved in are obviously not "pure" and yet so many are willing to wink at that or ignore that. I appreciate how precise James is here.

Then peaceable -- we think of cults like Manson, Jim Jones and Koresh and it is striking how they are not peaceable.

Easy to be intreated -- wow, what a contrast with our experience with the LRC, or JWs or again the Branch Davidians. The minute they are intreated they lock up the doors and get the guns.

Full of mercy -- instead of full of lawsuits.

Partiality and hypocrisy -- the two hallmarks of any cult.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

James explains why we are deceived...

The term "cult" is too broad to be able to extract some points "from the bible" and say "follow these 10 points and you won't be deceived by a cult". Cults can range from very strict Pharisee-like behaviors and top-down hierarchy to very care-free new age sorts. Some of the verses mentioned apply more to Judaism and would apply to any cults that have Jewish-like traits, but probably don't apply to a new age sort of cult.

I'm not saying it could not apply to cults, but I think the letter is primarily aimed at individuals within the church, not at warning them about outsiders in cults. Also, the instructions could be equally applied to any sect or religion, Judaism or Gnosticism, or any party of zealots. Partiality can be experienced in any denomination, as can respect of persons being the pastor, senior pastor or priest or Pope.

Being rich - this could be seen in the pentecostal churches, prosperity gospel, Catholicism etc.

There is also this concept of a "religious spirit" in Todd's list, which to me is unbiblical, but to your view a religious spirit (as one who takes care of orphans and widows) may be a positive thing?

"A religious spirit can slowly take over, as legal experience and fear of man, more and more, creeps in."

[ZNPaaneah]

I used to take this position that the term cult is not biblical, and the definition in the dictionary is far too broad to be useful.

However, if we take the narrow definition of cult, "a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing" that is Biblical, that is what James refers to as "having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons" and that is useful.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I used to take this position that the term cult is not biblical, and the definition in the dictionary is far too broad to be useful.

However, if we take the narrow definition of cult, "a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing" that is Biblical, that is what James refers to as "having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons" and that is useful.

There's no need to tie cults to the Bible. Not to mention that the word cult wasn't in existence until the early 17th century. So the Bible doesn't even mention the word cult.

Still, we should all be aware and concerned that cults exist today. I don't know why but cults are rampant today. The one in the news lately is Nxivm, the women sex slave cult that brands the women. The one made famous by the Smallville star, Allison Mack. Another one is The Children of God, or The Family, another sex cult, infamous for Flirty Fishing. I almost joined that cult before joining the local church. I had/have a friend that was in it.

Since I left the LC cult I've pretty much been obsessed with cults. And in an effort to understand why I joined one, have read many books about different and various forms of them.

Except for the Lee sons, and well Watchman Nee, the LC is not a sex cult. Neither is it a doomsday cult. I consider the LC a cult lite ; like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and LDS Mormons.

The local church is a personality cult ... and its personality cult leader is clearly Witness Lee. There's no denying that.

And we don't need the Bible to prove it. The Bible is used to support it.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's no need to tie cults to the Bible. Not to mention that the word cult wasn't in existence until the early 17th century. So the Bible doesn't even mention the word cult.

Still, we should all be aware and concerned that cults exist today. I don't know why but cults are rampant today. The one in the news lately is Nxivm, the women sex slave cult that brands the women. The one made famous by the Smallville star, Allison Mack. Another one is The Children of God, or The Family, another sex cult, infamous for Flirty Fishing. I almost joined that cult before joining the local church. I had/have a friend that was in it.

Since I left the LC cult I've pretty much been obsessed with cults. And in an effort to understand why I joined one, have read many books about different and various forms of them.

Except for the Lee sons, and well Watchman Nee, the LC is not a sex cult. Neither is it a doomsday cult. I consider the LC a cult lite ; like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and LDS Mormons.

The local church is a personality cult ... and its personality cult leader is clearly Witness Lee. There's no denying that.

And we don't need the Bible to prove it. The Bible is used to support it.

Alluding to the LSM as sex cult (in regards to Lee’s sons and Nee) is quite a stretch Awareness - I think that kind of name calling is more of an Alt-Views topic of discussion.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's no need to tie cults to the Bible.

I agree. I think the verses in James are equally applicable to many situations whether full blown cult, cult lite, or simply whether you have been misled in your Christian walk. These temptations are common to us all, you don't have to be a member of the Manson cult to be profited from these verses.

If you have done something foolish,
If you have been tempted to act contrary to your conscience
If you have stopped being a doer of the word and instead have merely become a listener
If one day you realize you are in a place of confusion and evil works. A place of contention, where the ones you are surrounded by are impossible to be entreated, a place of partiality and hypocrisy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I used to take this position that the term cult is not biblical, and the definition in the dictionary is far too broad to be useful.

However, if we take the narrow definition of cult, "a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing" that is Biblical, that is what James refers to as "having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons" and that is useful.

I think you are confusing the meaning of partiality (favoritism) with something else (idolatry). The description of "excessive admiration for a particular person or thing" is more like idolatry than partiality. The bible already addresses misplaced admiration of people or things as idolatry. The immediate context of the verse about partiality is wealth and wealthy believers mistreated poor believers (James 1:9–11). Similar ideas, but a little bit different.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think you are confusing the meaning of partiality (favoritism) with something else (idolatry). The description of "excessive admiration for a particular person or thing" is more like idolatry than partiality. The bible already addresses misplaced admiration of people or things as idolatry. The immediate context of the verse about partiality is wealth and wealthy believers mistreated poor believers (James 1:9–11). Similar ideas, but a little bit different.

9 But let the brother of low degree glory in his high estate: 10 and the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. 11 For the sun ariseth with the scorching wind, and withereth the grass; and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his goings.

Our high estate is that we are all kings, sons of the King, and heirs of the coming kingdom. Regardless of our position in this world we believers should have our conversation in this world as kings and heirs. Therefore, calling a particular brother "rich" is a red flag. We are all sons of the king and heirs of grace, so how then is this one brother "rich"?

Two possible ways: riches of this world which will fade away and are vanity, or rich with the good gift of God. But since all good gifts come from God it is God that is rich, not this brother. It is of God that you receive this good gift, so thinking that it came from "this rich brother" is an error.

Read the context.

[awareness]

Who's Todd Fishkind?

[UntoHim]

Todd was a musician/writer in the earliest days of contemporary Christian music. He was a good friend of Kieth Green, and co-wrote a number of Green's original songs. At some point, around 1974/5 Todd came in contact with the Local Church in Southern Calif area. He actually moved into a brothers house for a while. He also got Kieth & Melody Green to come to some LC meetings. His time in the LC was short lived. I had some contact with Kieth a number of years ago but he was not really interested in mixing it up with us yahoos on the forum. (and can you blame him?) Anyways, he has apparently penned some short papers about his cult experiences.
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Todd was a musician/writer in the earliest days of contemporary Christian music. He was a good friend of Kieth Green, and co-wrote a number of Green's original songs. At some point, around 1974/5 Todd came in contact with the Local Church in Southern Calif area. He actually moved into a brothers house for a while. He also got Kieth & Melody Green to come to some LC meetings. His time in the LC was short lived. I had some contact with Kieth a number of years ago but he was not really interested in mixing it up with us yahoos on the forum. (and can you blame him?) Anyways, he has apparently penned some short papers about his cult experiences.
-

Thanks bro Untohim. That explains it. I looked him up, but only found a musician. Then I looked up his name with Christian cults and found this thread on LCD.

For everybody else : Cults are about : conformity and compliance. And that was my experience in Lee's local church.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Todd has merely pulled some ideas together and made some claims about them applying to cults.
Overall these points as presented are a false dichotomy because a person could meet all 10 criteria and yet not be in a cult. Each point should be considered as standalone and there is nothing in the bible that suggests they can be tied together as a test for cults.

I agree that there is potential for groups to meet all these criteria and yet not be a cult.

I don't know the author's intent, but I didn't read this as a litmus test for cults, as you did. In the brief intro he mentions that it is "not exhaustive" and calls them merely "prominent signs". I think this is a great starting point for those entering a group (like the LSM churches) where they feel something is initially "off".

During my time with the LSM churches I could provide countless examples of "saints" who felt that something was just not right with the group - but persisted and end up staying (or getting sucked in). It may have been helpful for them to review a list, such as this, when their spirit was warning them of something being wrong. It doesn't make the list perfect or good, but potentially helpful.

For those in the LSM churches or exploring - please consult with other committed Christians. The best thing to do is have them read the words of Witness Lee first hand and invite them along to the meetings with you.