Attending Different Churches: Divisive attitudes

Evangelical · 09-17-2018, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Totally non responsive to my question. Please stop wasting everyone's time. Are you trying to be cute? How is it that you think it is appropriate to answer the way you do? This forum is about back and forth dialogue. Please don't start a thread and then be totally unresponsive to other posters. Answer the questions in a responsive way or I'm going to close the thread.
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You have the choice to choose who you think is God's oracle or not, and which church you want to go to.

I thought you wanted simple answers, before you just wanted a yes or no answer, and I provided that. Now it seems you have done a 180 degree turn and want more. Perhaps if you can specify the exact number of words that you want me to use, and I will comply.

I posted numerous responses to other posts, more than 10.

UntoHim · 09-17-2018, 06:52 PM

Well, now that wasn't so hard was it, Mr. E.? Of course you're still avoiding and evading. That may work with "new ones" who don't know what is really taught and really practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not going to work here.

I'm trying (without much success it seems) to get you to be straightforward. I know that's hard for Local Churchers...but I know you can do it bro! I know you read English. I know you understand the questions. I just can't quite figure out if you are trying to be cute or what.

So I have the choice to choose my own oracle? Are they an oracle like Witness Lee or are they an illegitimate oracle? Are they actually speaking for God, or was Witness Lee the only person speaking as God's oracle? So I can choose to go to a non Local Church of Witness Lee in a particular city, but it's not a legitimate church? The speaking I hear at this church is not legitimate speaking? WHY IS THE CHURCH I GO TO NOT LEGITIMATE? WHY IS THE SPEAKING NOT LEGITIMATE. Please be straightforward and answer these questions.

I don't care if your answer is short, medium or long. What I do care is that you actually answer the question. My questions are not rhetorical or theoretical. They are very genuine and very straightforward. Please respect them as such.
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Evangelical · 09-17-2018, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Well, now that wasn't so hard was it, Mr. E.? Of course you're still avoiding and evading. That may work with "new ones" who don't know what is really taught and really practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not going to work here.

I'm trying (without much success it seems) to get you to be straightforward. I know that's hard for Local Churchers...but I know you can do it bro! I know you read English. I know you understand the questions. I just can't quite figure out if you are trying to be cute or what.

So I have the choice to choose my own oracle? Are they an oracle like Witness Lee or are they an illegitimate oracle? Are they actually speaking for God, or was Witness Lee the only person speaking as God's oracle? So I can choose to go to a non Local Church of Witness Lee in a particular city, but it's not a legitimate church? The speaking I hear at this church is not legitimate speaking? WHY IS THE CHURCH I GO TO NOT LEGITIMATE? WHY IS THE SPEAKING NOT LEGITIMATE. Please be straightforward and answer these questions.

I don't care if your answer is short, medium or long. What I do care is that you actually answer the question. My questions are not rhetorical or theoretical. They are very genuine and very straightforward. Please respect them as such.
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Firstly, the legitimacy of a church and legitimacy of the speaking are two separate matters so I will address them one by one.

We can choose who we believe is God's oracle. Whether they are or not in reality is a different matter - God's oracle is anyone who speaks for God. If someone prophesies then they are God's oracle in essence.

The legitimacy of a church would depend on whether it is a genuine local church in the city or a sect in reality. So if your church is a sect then it is not really legitimate. But if you believe that your church is not a sect and a genuine church that is your free will to believe that.

Legitimacy of the speaking depends on whether it is speaking for and forth God, or not. If they are not speaking for and forth God they aren't legitimate. Now I could give many examples here from word/faith prosperity teaching that speak forth riches and fortune than God.

There could be someone who is God's oracle speaking in a sect. Maybe you believe that person is God's oracle, maybe they are speaking for and forth God. On the other hand someone may be speaking in the local church who is not God's oracle because they are not speaking for and forth God.

As an example, Madam Guyon comes to mind. Maybe she was God's oracle but she was in the Catholic church. A legitimate speaker in an illegitimate church. Maybe a person would reject Catholicism but attend a Catholic gathering just to hear her speak.

As another example, sometimes in the recovery people do not speak for the Lord. They speak other things - this would be an example of illegitimate speaking.

I hope that answers your questions.

UntoHim · 09-17-2018, 08:26 PM

Thanks, Mr E. You win. I give up.

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Trapped · 09-17-2018, 09:34 PM

Can I jump in here and ask about the word "oracle"? It seems we are using the term here to refer to a person, whereas in the Bible I believe it does not use it that way.

Gotquestions.org explains: https://www.gotquestions.org/oracles-of-God.html For example, in Romans 3:2, the oracles of God are not people, in the same way we are using "oracle" in this thread in reference to WLee or to another person.

Is there somewhere in the Bible where the thought of a person being an oracle is presented? I was reading a few passages of "the ministry" about the oracle, and I honestly think the way it is spoken about lends itself to a misleading interpretation of the word (shocker!). For example, one phrase is, "When we meet together to enjoy the speaking of God in His oracle..." and another is "There is such a heavenly traffic when God speaks in His oracle in the meeting." (from Further Light Concerning the Building Up of the Body of Christ) (I do note that elsewhere in the ministry Lee makes it clear we are not in the meetings "listening to a man" but as so often happens, his blurring the proper usage of some words lends itself incredibly easily to misinterpretation and insinuation that, in this case for example, Lee is an/the oracle.)

This wording Lee uses seems to indicate that the speaking and the oracle are something separate, i.e. his phraseology, "speaking in an oracle", when really I think the oracle is the speaking itself, or is the very words.

(I know this isn't at the very heart of UntoHim's questioning, but it would help me at least).

Thoughts?

Ohio · 09-18-2018, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can I jump in here and ask about the word "oracle"? It seems we are using the term here to refer to a person, whereas in the Bible I believe it does not use it that way.

Here LSMers equivocate. Officially and doctrinally they will assert that Lee was an oracle of God, a spokesperson for God, one who speaks for God to His People. Privately, internally, they believe Lee alone and Lee uniquely spoke for God, THE Minister of the Age etc., and any other minister, not teaching Lee's own words, is illegitimate.

Trapped · 09-18-2018, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here LSMers equivocate. Officially and doctrinally they will assert that Lee was an oracle of God, a spokesperson for God, one who speaks for God to His People. Privately, internally, they believe Lee alone and Lee uniquely spoke for God, THE Minister of the Age etc., and any other minister, not teaching Lee's own words, is illegitimate.

Yes, I've definitely seen and heard that!

What I really was after is the use of "oracle" = "a person" or "spokeperson", when it seems to me that Biblically, "oracle" = "the words" or "the speaking". This allows for the cessation of the following of a man if what he is speaking is not of, or is no longer of, God. A person is not the oracle, what he is speaking is. This also removes the infallibility aspect......if someone is an oracle, then how can anything they speak be wrong? But if a man is speaking the oracles of God (i.e. the words of God), then when he is wrong he is simply not speaking the oracles of God.

If we understand a word properly then we can use it correctly. It also removes the grandiose air of oracular mystique around W. Lee.

Does that make sense? Just thinking out loud. I'm just throwing it out there to see how others understand it.

09-17-2018, 06:52 PM	#2
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,828	Well, now that wasn't so hard was it, Mr. E.? Of course you're still avoiding and evading. That may work with "new ones" who don't know what is really taught and really practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Not going to work here. I'm trying (without much success it seems) to get you to be straightforward. I know that's hard for Local Churchers...but I know you can do it bro! I know you read English. I know you understand the questions. I just can't quite figure out if you are trying to be cute or what. So I have the choice to choose my own oracle? Are they an oracle like Witness Lee or are they an illegitimate oracle? Are they actually speaking for God, or was Witness Lee the only person speaking as God's oracle? So I can choose to go to a non Local Church of Witness Lee in a particular city, but it's not a legitimate church? The speaking I hear at this church is not legitimate speaking? WHY IS THE CHURCH I GO TO NOT LEGITIMATE? WHY IS THE SPEAKING NOT LEGITIMATE. Please be straightforward and answer these questions. I don't care if your answer is short, medium or long. What I do care is that you actually answer the question. My questions are not rhetorical or theoretical. They are very genuine and very straightforward. Please respect them as such. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

09-17-2018, 08:26 PM	#4
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,828	Re: Attending Different Churches: Divisive attitudes Thanks, Mr E. You win. I give up. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

09-17-2018, 09:34 PM	#5
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: Attending Different Churches: Divisive attitudes Can I jump in here and ask about the word "oracle"? It seems we are using the term here to refer to a person, whereas in the Bible I believe it does not use it that way. Gotquestions.org explains: https://www.gotquestions.org/oracles-of-God.html For example, in Romans 3:2, the oracles of God are not people, in the same way we are using "oracle" in this thread in reference to WLee or to another person. Is there somewhere in the Bible where the thought of a person being an oracle is presented? I was reading a few passages of "the ministry" about the oracle, and I honestly think the way it is spoken about lends itself to a misleading interpretation of the word (shocker!). For example, one phrase is, "When we meet together to enjoy the speaking of God in His oracle..." and another is "There is such a heavenly traffic when God speaks in His oracle in the meeting." (from Further Light Concerning the Building Up of the Body of Christ) (I do note that elsewhere in the ministry Lee makes it clear we are not in the meetings "listening to a man" but as so often happens, his blurring the proper usage of some words lends itself incredibly easily to misinterpretation and insinuation that, in this case for example, Lee is an/the oracle.) This wording Lee uses seems to indicate that the speaking and the oracle are something separate, i.e. his phraseology, "speaking in an oracle", when really I think the oracle is the speaking itself, or is the very words. (I know this isn't at the very heart of UntoHim's questioning, but it would help me at least). Thoughts?