mann-man's Blog

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=Ohio;8059]

This says a whole lot to me -- Benny humiliating Osteen publicly -- in the "name of Jesus," -- after an interview with 9x married Larry the King. Then he goes over and "blows" on folks who need some "healing," and they all fall into the arms of others.

Remember, Benny didn't call out Osteen by name. Why doesn't he speak to him privately ? ......because they're not in the same 'camp' is my guess. And who knows, maybe he or others have ? I know Osteen got unindated with letters reprimending him for not (paraphrasing here saying JESUS is the WAY, the TRUTH and THE LIFE and no man can come to the Father but through Him. Osteen eventually issued an apology to the Christian audience but has never taken it back when going on Larry King after that time. Osteen has been on King a few times to my knowledge.

As for Hinn blowing on people...I am absolutely sure he has a scripture for doing that. (I'm not saying he is truly being led to do it but he has a scripture for it. When I find it I'll share it.)

For years & years I never cared for Hinn. A few years ago, I heard him TEACH using scriptures on God the Holy Spirit. Up to that time, I didn't 'know' the Holy Spirit only that He was the third Member of the God-Head. That He was the 'Life Giving Spirit'. That He was living inside of me as is Jesus and the Father. In that message, Hinn explained how He is the Voice of God. I then remembered when I was praying to GOD a few months before I got saved for 'help'. I will never forget the Voice telling me to call on JESUS. Call on JESUS, the Voice kept telling me. I thought it was my 'mind' telling me that. Aww...it was the HOLY SPIRIT who is the VOICE of GOD telling me to call on JESUS I now knew !

Consider Deuteronomy 4:29-31
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

30"When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the LORD your God and listen to His Voice.

31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.


Maybe I was brain dead during my time in the LC but I don't recall Lee ever teaching on God the Holy Spirit except when he referred to the Spirit as the Life Giving Spirit. He never even addressed the third Person of the GodHead AS the Holy Spirit, did he? (I know he does in the footnotes of the Rcv) But I was not in the LC as long as you so perhaps I am wrong.

Without getting into a long winded discussion about these pastors/teachers/preachers, I will be attentive to whoever helps me dig deep into the Word of God.

While the Lee and the LC had lots of things 'wrong', we have to admit, Lee helped us and taught us how to call on the Name of the Lord. That we got into a repititious, vain, heartLESS habit is our own fault. That said, his ministry did teach me to pray directly to the Lord Jesus Christ. You know darn well, most Christians pray to 'the Father' in the Name of Jesus. We didn't. But Jesus does say in John 14:6 "No man can come to the Father but through HIM." Now when Jesus was teaching before His Crucifixion, He couldn't very well tell His disciples to Pray to HIM. He was preparing them for when the time came that the Holy Spirit would breath LIFE into them and empower them to speak with Boldness and Authority. The Holy Spirit is the One Who reveals the WORD of GOD to us. He reveals JESUS to us. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot KNOW, that is have a relationship with Jesus, the WORD of GOD Who became flesh. He is the One Who brings the scriptures ALIVE to our souls, to our heart, our spirit.

I don't know. Maybe Lee taught this and I never 'got it'. I only remember Lee emphasizing our spirit. 'Turn to your spirit.' Well if my spirit is not FILLED with the Holy Spirit of GOD, what good is it for me to 'turn to my spirit?' Because that is where Jesus is ? True but ONLY if you are filled with God the Holy Spirit !

Lee did have it right, imho, we've got to pray/contact GOD with our spirit. When we do, our SOUL blesses the LORD, rejoices in the LORD. You do get this, right Ohio ? That Lee screwed with our heads, well.....what a shame. But I know for a fact there is something deeper than our mind, our emotions and our will because we are born of GOD and God is SPIRIT and thus we are S/spirit.

Even voice teachers will tell their students to sing from their diaghram, the deep part of their being, not from their throat.

It took me many years to 'get it'. I had to strip the old LC wineskin of talking a certain way to make myself 'believe' I was talking with 'my spirit'.

I will continue with my thoughts down below.

Yet ... he is an "awesome" teacher with a terrible temper and no patience for "incompetent" employees. What did that little "display" teach you and the others who see it regularly?

That he is HUMAN...and for me NEVER, EVER to put any man or woman up on a pedestal ! My going up on stage was not my doing either. Some pastor came and grabbed me because he 'saw' the power of God all over me. He could feel the Presence of God very strongly on me. Believe me, I was thrown for a loop when I was pulled out of my seat when I was in the middle of private Praise and Worship. IMHO, since I pray & speak the Word of God everyday and study His Word and Teach His Word and am soo in Love with Jesus, for He is the Lover of my SOUL, surely the Presence of God has to be on me, no ? or Yes ?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no huge fan of Osteen either. The only minister I liked on TV was Ron Hembree. Too bad he just passed away.

I have never heard of him ! I'll have to google him.

And ... where's that verse about "blowing" people down.

I don't know but I am sure there is one ! And when I find it, I'll share it with you...maybe PM it to you. The reason I say this is because Benny also takes his jacket off sometimes and swings it about. He recently gave the scripture for it and explained how God told him to take off his jacket. He didn't want to do it at first but he obeyed.

NOW...settle...settle. He could be taking the scriptures out of context. I do not know. What I know is he does have scriptures for everything he does. Right or wrong. Most of the time I think he is correct but when he is wrong, he is dead wrong.

WL was also an "awesome" teacher, who could also release his "temper" all over others. Does that give them a free pass on how we treat people?

EXACTLY my point ! I don't know how they allow it to happen. If I lose my temper in the flesh, for SURE the LORD will convict me and I'll have to go and apologize! And these guys just lose it like they 'can'?? I do not want to be in their shoes when they stand before the Throne of Glory. I have enough to answer for myself Thank You very much !

One thing I have been learning as I take in teachings. I check it out in the scriptures. I ask the Lord to give me insight, understanding and to show me the TRUTH. I don't want to be deceived. There are some people who believe God has a warehouse in heaven with body parts and when someone needs a new heart or liver, He gives it to an angel to deliver it. And people actually believe this stuff !!! Benny doesn't teach this to my knowledge, nor does Hagee.

Apostle Paul said he never used his authority for tearing down, only for building up. One of the most confusing things in the Christian life for me is seeing talented and gifted orators, who supposedly are the most fruitful and blessing to the body of Christ, all the while amassing fortunes and glory to themselves, can be so abusive to "the least of My brothers."

I'm not judging these ones. I'm just a little confused.

Ohio,
I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. There are a lot of things I don't understand about these teachers/preachers. Believe me. I don't know if they live double lives, or if they've simply got caught up with the 'business' aspect of the ministry. That is why it is soo difficult for me to be 'loyal' to a particular 'ministry'. That's why I hardly go to 'church'...but I love to fellowship and pray with saints and I do like listening to different gifted teachers !

You might be wondering what I 'see' in Benny's teachings, like everyone else. Well...even though he's a 'showman', he can explain the Word of God without the fluff-fluff. He can be very deep. But he can be full of himself too even though he 'tries' not to. And yes...his wife of 30 plus years recently divorced him. No one is saying why. It's hush-hush but Hinn did say with absolute certainty, there was no adultery or fornication involved from either of them. I believe it because if you ask me Benny loves his ministry more than 'life' itself. He never should have gotten married if you ask me. LORD HAVE MERCY !!!!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ohio, I hear you LOUD and CLEAR. There are a lot of things I don't understand about these teachers/preachers. Believe me. I don't know if they live double lives, or if they've simply got caught up with the 'business' aspect of the ministry. That is why it is soo difficult for me to be 'loyal' to a particular 'ministry'. That's why I hardly go to 'church'...but I love to fellowship and pray with saints and I do like listening to different gifted teachers !

You might be wondering what I 'see' in Benny's teachings, like everyone else. Well...even though he's a 'showman', he can explain the Word of God without the fluff-fluff. He can be very deep. But he can be full of himself too even though he 'tries' not to. And yes...his wife of 30 plus years recently divorced him. No one is saying why. It's hush-hush but Hinn did say with absolute certainty, there was no adultery or fornication involved from either of them. I believe it because if you ask me Benny loves his ministry more than 'life' itself.

Boy does that sound familiar!

CMW, thanks much for the long reply. I always appreciate your heart and attitude when you post. Thanks for taking the time.

I think that it's hard for people like us, at our time in life, to find another church which would be satisfactory. We just see through too much "junk." Besides being an avowed "judgaholic," I guess I just have been thru too much.

[Paul Cox]

The Local Church helped us to "see" all the "degradation" and unfortunately, once we have seen the degradation of the Local Church, it is the first "seeing" that becomes our greatest hindrance to fellowship. I guess that's what we used to call "wrecked outright."

P.C.

[manna-man]

I miss the old Benny Hinn with the Hurricane styled hairdoo.

I used to rolaf! And then he'd blow someone over!

I'm in agreement with CMW, That boy can preach it when he wanna. There are so many things that bug me about that guy. But I've noticed( aside from the healing stuff) That when I close my eyes and listen to him, I find myself sitting up from my chair and wide eyed.

:justlurking: Hey when your done with that popcorn lets use the bucket for a special offering!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

I miss the old Benny Hinn with the Hurricane styled hairdoo.

I used to rolaf! And then he'd blow someone over!
I'm in agreement with CMW, That boy can preach it when he wanna. There are so many things that bug me about that guy. But I've noticed( aside from the healing stuff) That when I close my eyes and listen to him, I find myself sitting up from my chair and wide eyed.

:justlurking: Hey when your done with that popcorn lets use the bucket for a special offering!

I'm sooo glad you totally understand where I'm coming from manna-man ! What I am learning to do and it does take a heartfelt DISCIPLINE is simply pay close attention to the Word of God someone is teaching/preaching. Whether they live with they teach/preach is between them and God. I have a bible. I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH, the Word of God but certainly God did appoint preachers/teachers/evangelists in our midsts.

When I was in the LC we had 4 leading brothers. Each one had a different gift and it was obvious to me. One could really preach the gospel at the 'love feasts'. But he was not very good at giving the message. Another was very good at TEACHING the Word of God but not sharing the gospel message.

I didn't look down at one because he couldn't teach or the other, because he couldn't 'preach'.

Hagee can really PREACH. I don't consider him a good teacher though. A good preacher yes. And I like that he blesses the congregation at the end of each service.

Benny can TEACH, really TEACH and it ain't convuleted like some of the others I have heard (Jesse Duplantis, Kenneth Copeland, Mike Muduch -UGH-) He's not like them. But I do sometimes scratch my head wondering how someone so anointed to teach and preach the gospel can have soo many things that bug people. I heard him preach the gospel and he ain't mamsy-pamsy when it comes to the Word of GOD for sure. So I'm learning to be soo judgmental and critical...only discerning so that I don't get duped.

As for the popcorn bucket...yes let's pass it around as an offering tool and then divide the goods among us all, or if we feel there is someone struggling beyond hope, then we give it to that person.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

As for the popcorn bucket...yes let's pass it around as an offering tool and then divide the goods among us all, or if we feel there is someone struggling beyond hope, then we give it to that person.

Yeah, we could send it to sister Steward......

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I'm sooo glad you totally understand where I'm coming from manna-man ! What I am learning to do and it does take a heartfelt DISCIPLINE is simply pay close attention to the Word of God someone is teaching/preaching. Whether they live with they teach/preach is between them and God. I have a bible. I have the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH, the Word of God but certainly God did appoint preachers/teachers/evangelists in our midsts...

Yes sister CMW,

Part of the cost of being a minister of the gospel is to be accountable to one another as these pastors are. I pointed out on the other forum just now that my pastor meets with other pastors in the region. This is healthy behavior and oppertunity for correction and accountability. Just plain humble and healthy.

Till the whole world hears,

Don Jr.

[manna-man]

Where did everybody go? Is it to exspensive to participate here? Is the cost too high?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Roger

The Local Church helped us to "see" all the "degradation" and unfortunately, once we have seen the degradation of the Local Church, it is the first "seeing" that becomes our greatest hindrance to fellowship. I guess that's what we used to call "wrecked outright."

P.C.

Wrecked is right. In the LC we learned that Christianity is degraded. Then, we discover the LC is degraded too. That disappointment causes many to just walk away from it all, and go on, to a normal human life, like just about everyone else. That's when it's discovered that always trying to live by the Bible, or the Spirit, by The Body & the Church, is a burden that feels good to be free from.

My friend since Jr. High, and thru the LC, Lisa, called this evening. She's been contacted on Facebook by, I don't know, forty or fifty old LCer friends. She called to tell me about the death of one of the children of a couple we knew in the LC, of an overdose.

What a stunner! I remember the girl very well. She was very pretty, and always nice, polite, and sweet. Now I find out that her brother raped her when she was young, and her father physically abused her. Then, shocker of shockers, the brother she married in the LC, that from all outward appearances was a burning given to the Lord brother, was also physically abusing her. And to add insult to injury, the elders knew of it, and did nothing about it. I swear, you just can't trust your eyes.

And so many of those that have contacted her, many of them that condemned me when I left the LC, have since also walked from the LC, and went on, to a normal human life.

To think that I blindly gave my life to all that. I gave my life to what ended up being just an outward show. And when the show was over, all the actors just walked away, into the woodwork, melting into the maze of life. In the end I gave my life and heart to a human drama, with God added into the mix, to give the pretense the shimmer of both sincerity & urgency.

After the LC, it feels good to be human. Humanity was oppressed in the LC. That's why just about everyone that comes out of the LC says they don't care about their own or others, really. Unbelievers are often better at human care, than is found in the LC.

And so, since all of it is degraded, even the LC, after that, we are indeed wrecked.

Hey gang, let's be wrecked together. Both misery, and joy, loves company.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think that it's hard for people like us, at our time in life, to find another church which would be satisfactory. We just see through too much "junk." Besides being an avowed "judgaholic," I guess I just have been thru too much.

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together....whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

Here is a quote from YPO that is worth reviewing: "Eventually, I got clear that the Lord had pushed me out the front door of the Local Church but I never got the word from Him about what was supposed to happen next. I think very many of us can appreciate this awkward position. And the answer is, of course, don’t do anything. Meet with every believer you can in any context that you can and let the Lord worry about the rest of it. Don’t join anything or start anything. You are already in everything that you need to be in. Anything else is a distraction.

Consequently, the main lesson I gained from my brief time among the saints in the Local Church was just how easy it is for religion to distract us from the reality of Christ. Or, as I’m fond of saying these days, how easy it is for a notion about “universal church” to destroy the ability to have the actual assembly. It’s both ironic and sad but even those places that readily picked up the practice of “The New Way” actually practiced it in an old way from the start because there was no other way for them to do it. To put it bluntly, the definition and practice of “The God-ordained Way” could never actually BE the God-ordained way but it could only become another denomination. Just assemble freely and assemble small and let the Lord as the Head worry about the building of His Body."

I loved that line, "Meet with every believer you can in every context you can and let the Lord worry about the rest of it", i.e. the building of the Body of Christ.

That's kind of what I meant when I said, "Don't get all religious" with the believers around you. Just receive them, however poor, pathetic, and "thin" their Christ might appear. Because when the veil is lifted you might find that yours is worse still, and you'll be glad for giving them a cup of cold water.

There was a song in "Smokey and the Bandit", which I used to sing when on the road in my salad days: "Wee got a looong way to go, and a short time to get there...."

The local church is not an organization; it is an event, and it occurs whenever two or more are gathered...

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.

Your comments are most appreciated, brother aron.

Grace to you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I found another church. The church is called the "ekklesia". It is where anyone believes into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and we gather together.

It is a gathering, a meeting, an assembly, a congregation. It is the coming together of those who have been called out of the world in Christ Jesus.

You can have an assembly on the road, on the beach, in the supermarket, at work, at home, at school, wherever the Lord has placed you and another believer who is able to receive you the same as you do they, in Christ.

In Christ there is no judgment. Mercy triumphs over judgment. We are all full of junk. So I don't judge yours and vice versa. Jesus didn't like the judgaholics.

One day I realized that whenever an unbeliever is next to me, is a chance for the gospel, the good news of Jesus. And whenever a believer is next to me, there is the opportunity for the ekklesia, the assembly.

I am amazed, that when I don't get "all religious" with other believers, how quickly most of them will receive me in Christ Jesus. And the Lord promised, whenever two or more of us gather in His name, He will be there in the midst of us.

We started to meet at one place this summer, and after the recent bible study, I was chatting with the minister, and he goes off on how "tongues have ceased." I could tell he had given that "message" a million times. Then my wife walks up, and I tried to warn him, and change the subject, but he was already "in motion," and could not stop.

Things were going fairly well at this new congregation until that night.

Now it seems, that was the end of that!

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue, like whether someone wants to celebrate their birthday. But to my wife ... if a minister is going to condemn all tongue-talkers ... roughly 50% of all professing evangelicals ... then ... well ... goodbye.

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

I doubt it's the middle, Ohio! LOL

Paul gives explicit instructions on how to handle it in a meeting. I'm neither for nor against for my own part but if you're going to do it different from the way the Bible says, that's the uphill battle to me.

Those who choose to ignore what Paul wrote because of their preferences and unsupported religious teachings they received are generally not acting in either wisdom or love for the rest if it's creating a problem. Ditto for those who make it an issue at all, though.

Mostly it's not easy to fellowship with someone about their tongues speaking, I've found. I never know what they're talking about.

It is unfortunate that brothers and sisters insist one way or the other and as a result sets the path for more division. Previous posts have pointed out that love is ultimately the way. Paul's inclusion of chapter 13 was to give believers the most excellent way to take when matters of differences arise. He also relates this love to the maturity in life of a believer in verse 11, which states,

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child." (1 Corinth. 13: 11, Darby translation)

I have often pondered over this verse and have related it practically with the normal function in a family. For example, sometimes a child may say or do something inappropriate among adults within a family, but the adults because of their maturity will not react too strongly to the child's actions. In love, they will admonish and correct and not to embarrass the little one.

In chapter 12 of first Corinthians, Paul explains the wonderful diversity amongst all the members, having different gifts, ministries (services, if you wish), and operations. He further goes on to deal with the problem, which was taking place in Corinth - the matter of tongue speaking. More specifically, the problem was NOT tongue speaking. The problem was its over-emphasis to the detriment of the exercise of other's gifts, ministries, and operations. As a continued illustration with the family, we all know that in a family with a good number of children, there are often times when one child likes to show off or be the center of attention at the expense of the other children. A wise parent who recognizes this would then take steps to bring some balance back to the family dynamics so as to return the family to a healthy atmosphere where all the children and adults can thrive together. This requires a healthy, loving atmosphere, where, although mistakes are made, love eventually covers them. Was it not another apostle who said, "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8, NIV)?

In chapter 14 of first Corinthians you see clearly Paul's balanced and loving words to the believers, "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." (1 Corinth. 14: 39-40, NIV) Prior to this he also stated that "each on has". This was spoken so as to adjust the one or few who equated the eye to the whole body (1 Corinth. 12:17, NIV).

In conclusion, let us all heed the Scriptures and do what is profitable for building all our brothers and sisters and not be quick to pass judgment on he/she, for are we greater than God? Is He not the One who saved them and truly know their true value to Him? So, let us each walk soberly and with a spirit of love for the sake of His testimony.

Grace and peace to you all,
A simple believer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I doubt it's the middle, Ohio! LOL

Paul gives explicit instructions on how to handle it in a meeting. I'm neither for nor against for my own part but if you're going to do it different from the way the Bible says, that's the uphill battle to me.

Those who choose to ignore what Paul wrote because of their preferences and unsupported religious teachings they received are generally not acting in either wisdom or love for the rest if it's creating a problem. Ditto for those who make it an issue at all, though.

Mostly it's not easy to fellowship with someone about their tongues speaking, I've found. I never know what they're talking about.

By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

When I read Paul, I see a neutral position. When others read Paul they only see the verses they like.

I told the pastor that I viewed tongues like celebrating days. In Gal 4.10-11, Paul says "you observe days, I am afraid of you, having labored in vain." Yet in Rom 14.4-8 says, "one man esteems one day above another, the other esteems all days alike. Let each be persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, let him regard it to the Lord."

I need some wisdom here. Believe it or not, verse wars have never (or rarely) worked for me. Both sides have built the wall, both sides are well entrenched with ammunition, and both sides like to keep the wall in place. I see the wall and look the other way. My wife sees the wall and runs.

We may be running a long time.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I read Paul, I see a neutral position. When others read Paul they only see the verses they like.

Brother?

I don't believe this is "neutral" with regard to Paul's teaching on how to have tongues in the Christian meeting, is it?

1Cr 14:18 ESV
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1Cr 14:19 ESV
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1Cr 14:20 ESV
Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.
1Cr 14:21 ESV
In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord."
1Cr 14:22 ESV
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Cr 14:23 ESV
If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Cr 14:24 ESV
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Cr 14:25 ESV
the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Cr 14:26 ESV
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Cr 14:27 ESV
If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Cr 14:28 ESV
But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

If someone says, as one prominent local pastor told me one day, "We don't believe that here," when I showed him verses 27-28, they say so to their own loss, in my view. I'm not interested in making this a law, of course, but there seems to be a clear prinicple to minimize the role of tongues in the meetings. We can perhaps be more liberal than Paul without ignoring his position entirely. His directions seems reasonable and helpful, but should never be rigidly and religiously applied. Nevertheless, IMHO, we should in general accept Paul's exhortation to limit to 2-3 and only then with interpretation. Otherwise, the meetings risk get out of hand such that visitors think we're crazy and the building up itself suffers.

"I would rather" doesn't seem "neutral" at all to me but is kind of expressly taking a position.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

And does this mean that those that are not "evangelical" are simply not Christians? I know you don't mean that. But are we still caught in an us v them when we dismiss Christians outside of evangelicalism? Are we a little more inclusive than the LC, but still short of the goal?

Of course, the statistic is what it is. It is phrased the way it is. Not much we can so with that.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By "down the middle" I heard that just about 50% of all evangelical Christians are Pentecostal. Not my stats, just what I heard.

Ohio,
The 'church' is constantly 'changing'. The Charasmatics and Word of Faith (WoF) have come out of the Pentecostal movement. Most pray/speak in tongues but they don't consider themselves Pentecostals.

Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Oral Roberts (rip), Paula White, Jesse Duplantis are part of the WoF clan. Perry Stone & Rod Parsley have a STRONG Pentecostal background. You can hear it when they begin to 'teach' under the anointing.

I am only naming these people because I am very familiar with their minisitries and know something about Pentecostals, Charasmatics & WoF.

Charles Stanley a well known Baptist preacher/teacher is not Pentecostal or WoF. He might be considered a Fundamental Charasmatic.

SHEESH !!! LORD have Mercy !

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue, like whether someone wants to celebrate their birthday. But to my wife ... if a minister is going to condemn all tongue-talkers ... roughly 50% of all professing evangelicals ... then ... well ... goodbye.

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

Now Ohio... surely you don't think I was not going to throw in my .02 worth !

I have grabbled with this teaching too since every 'church' I've ever been to strongly believe in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' aka speaking in tongues.

Right now, I have to attend to other things. So I'll be back later to tackle the question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Now Ohio... surely you don't think I was not going to throw in my .02 worth !

I have grabbled with this teaching too since every 'church' I've ever been to strongly believe in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' aka speaking in tongues.

Right now, I have to attend to other things. So I'll be back later to tackle the question.

I was hoping you would pass by sometime soon.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We started to meet at one place this summer, and after the recent bible study, I was chatting with the minister, and he goes off on how "tongues have ceased." I could tell he had given that "message" a million times. Then my wife walks up, and I tried to warn him, and change the subject, but he was already "in motion," and could not stop.

Things were going fairly well at this new congregation until that night.

Now it seems, that was the end of that!

Now ... I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter ... to me it's a non-issue,

Her last meeting in the LC was when the elder out of the blue mocked all tongue-talkers. What could he do, that's how he was trained.

Anyone have some wisdom for facing this issue? It seems to me that tongues is today's equivalent of circumcision. Acts 15 never solved that issue, so I have little hope for tongues. It basically now divides the body of Christ right down the middle.

Here I am !

Like you Ohio, I'm neither a tongue suppressor nor a tongue supporter. On occassion BY FAiTH, I will pray in tongues. I say by FAITH, because I have never had a 'spontaneous' experience as many seem to have had where out of no where they began to pray/speak in an uncomprehensible language which many call a 'heavenly language'. I have to BELIEVE the Holy Spirit is praying in this heavenly language and I usually ask HIM to before I begin. When I pray in 'tongues', I usually take this route when I don't know HOW to pray for a particular situation.

Most of us who left the LC left with one more 'attitude' on tongue speaking. We didn't speak / pray in tongues so 'it's not of the Lord because we were told the same thing the pastor said, 'tongues have ceased'. Like blind sheep, we believed it.

I am 'open' to pray in tongues but I do not like going to corporate prayer meetings where the entire session is tongue praying. That is how it is at the church I last attended for several years. They're kind of double speak. On the one hand they don't 'force' anyone to pray in tongues but will make you feel guilty if you don't. The pastors' made a big hup dee doo about praying in tongues for hours & hours & hours and how 'enlightened' they became by the Holy Spirit. Maybe.

BUT.......I look at the FRUIT. If people do not know how to pray the Word of God, if they are not trained to speak the Word of God, if their messages are recycled messages, I don't care how much time a person 'prays in tongues' I don't know if it's reaching the Throne Room ! How do I KNOW they are truly praying by the Power of the Holy Spirit if they don't know the Word of God.

To those who strongly endorse tongue praying, I ask WHERE is the interpretation ? No one I know has ever interpreted a tongue but everyone sure can speak it ! On occasion, I have asked God to give me the gift of interpretation because there have been times I have heard a person pray in tongues and it sounds like it is a LANGUAGE ! Very, very beautiful. I have also heard of people praying in tongues and it actually IS a foreign language and someone understands exactly what is being said.

Now the Word says that tongue praying is to edify yourself only. So why the 'corporate' tongue praying ? I really hate that.

On the other hand, when I hear someone say 'tongues have ceased', I keep my arms length from them too. They're wayyy too set in their ways.

So if you want to pray in tongues, ask the Holy Spirit to pray through you and believe you are if you don't spontaneous do it.

Either way, we ought to be training ourselves daily to speak the Word of God, that we might wax strong in the power of His Might. I don't know if tongues will strengthen our innerman but I know for a fact the Word of God does !