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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

We should believe scientists because they have the preponderance of evidence. Being an intelligent primate is nobler than being animated dirt which is what Genesis claims we are.

Bible never claims we are animated dirt, it uses the term dust, not dirt. Second, the theory of evolution also says that we are animated dust, so you are really off base limiting evolution to apes. What, God created the apes, and then from there we evolved?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Bible never claims we are animated dirt, it uses the term dust, not dirt. Second, the theory of evolution also says that we are animated dust, so you are really off base limiting evolution to apes. What, God created the apes, and then from there we evolved?

Your point about dust vs. dirt I regard as trivial quibbling. I'm not a Hebrew scholar. Nevertheless here's one that thinks the word in genesis 2:7 is better translated dirt.

What is the Dust of the Ground from which Man is Formed?
Genesis 2:7, according to the KJV, has the creation of man “from the dust of the ground.” But why “dust”?

The Hebrew here is afar, and it doesn’t seem to mean “dust.”

From Genesis 2:7, we know that it’s something on the ground, but we don’t know what. “Dust” is a possibility, just from this verse, but — again, just from this verse — so is “grass,” “rocks,” “lichen,” “mud,” etc. So we look further.

Genesis 13:16 helps us a little. There we read that Abram’s descendants will be like the afar on the earth, so that if the afar can be counted, so can Abram’s descendants. So afar can’t mean “mud” or “clay.” It seems to refer to particles of some sort.

Genesis 18:27 is helpful in a different way. There we see afar used as a metaphor of humility. (The full phrase is “afar and efer.” I’ve explained elsewhere that the English “dust and ashes” doesn’t do justice to the repetition of sounds in afar and efer: “Doublets Are Part And Parcel of Bible Translation.”) I Samuel 2:8 emphasizes the connotation of lowliness: God “raises the poor from afar, lifts up the needy from the trash.” And the vivid imagery of Isaiah repeatedly uses afar to represent humility.

But next we look at Genesis 26:15, which explains that the Philistines had filled Abram’s wells with afar. And here we see the problem with “dust” for afar, because one would use “dirt,” not “dust,” to plug up a well. (And, indeed, the KJV goes with “earth” here for afar.)

The basic problem is this: “Dust” in English refers specifically to particularly fine-grained particles, of earth or otherwise. “Dirt,” by contrast, is just what’s on the ground, and we seem to be talking about dirt here.

In Numbers 5:17, the priest is instructed to take afar form the floor of the Tabernacle, so again afar seems to be “dirt,” not “dust” Dust would have been swept away as part of regular cleaning (I presume).

In Greek for afar we usually find gi, a word that pretty clearly means “land,” both in the sense of “dirt” and of “country.” So in addition to its use as the substance that filled the wells, we read that Jacob lived in the gi of his ancestors, the gi of Canaan (Genesis 37:1). The Greek gi also means “(the entire) Earth,” a usage we find, for instance, in Genesis 6:11.

So far we have yet to see any indication that afar is particularly fine-grained, so we see no support for “dust.” We do see “fine as afar” in Deuteronomy 9:21, but there the fineness is in reference to the golden calf. “As fine as dirt” works as well as “as fine as dust.” (Though if the calf was made of gold, I’m not clear how it was burned into dust or ash or whatnot. Why didn’t it melt? But I guess that’s for another time.)

And in II Samuel 16:13, we see that afar can be flung along with rocks, again arguing for “dirt” and not “dust.”

Similarly, afar is a common image in Job, and there the word is frequently translated “earth.”

But “dirt” or “earth” isn’t quite right, either, because afar isn’t limited to what’s on the ground. In Leviticus 14:41, concerning a contaminated house, scraping a house produces afar — perhaps “debris,” in English. It’s probably not “dust” because the afar can be collected and poured out outside the city. (You won’t find “dust” in most English translations here, so if you’re not reading the Hebrew, it’s hard to know that it’s the same word.)

But then in the very next verse, “other stones” and “other afar” are supposed to be used to rebuild the house. (I don’t know of any English translation that uses “dust” here.) Is this just poetic symmetry? (Leviticus 14:40 refers to stones, so both “stones” and afar in 14:42 might refer to that which was discarded.) Or does afar also metonymically refer to “plaster,” made from earth and water? This latter possibility is consistent with Leviticus 14:45, where houses seem to be made of “wood, stones, and afar.” Or, perhaps, is the idea here that new stones, wood, and dirt are supposed to gathered, and then worked in the way that stones, wood and dirt usually are?

Also moving away from “dirt” for afar is Numbers 19:17, where we see that afar is the result of burning a sacrificial animal. Most translations have “ashes” here, not “dust.”

So afar seems to refer generally to any granular material, and in particular to the granular material on the surface of the earth. Additionally, it symbolizes humility. In English, we usually call that “dirt.”

So I think Genesis 2:7 should read, “The Lord God formed man from the dirt of the ground.”

Joel M. Hoffman, who holds a PhD in theoretical linguistics, has taught Bible in religious settings and translation theory at Brandeis University and at HUC-JIR in New York City. He is the chief translator of the widely read My People’s Prayer Book series (winner of the National Jewish Book Award), and author of both the critically acclaimed In the Beginning: A Short History of the Hebrew Language (NYU Press) and the popular And God Said: How Translations Conceal The Bible’s Original Meaning (Thomas Dunne Books/St. Martin’s Press).

If you wish to read evolution into Genesis 2:7, I have no problem with that as long as you admit that that is what you're doing. Before I accept that evolution is somehow implied by the text, I require evidence that supports that proposition. That only seems reasonable.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Your point about dust vs. dirt I regard as trivial quibbling.

The distinction is simple. There was rock and Earth prior to life. We had minerals. We had oceans, water, ice, wind, and other forces of nature.

Dust does not imply simple elements, but microscopic life.

Soil is also something distinct and more complicated still. Soil has three basic zones, the first is weathered rock which could refer to the Earth before there was life. The top zone refers to decomposed organic matter which obviously has to include the concept of life. The middle zone is a mixing of the two layers.

So the theory of evolution does not include the theory on how life was first formed, which is based on chemistry, not genetics. So the theory of evolution is how a single cell organism becomes multicellular and ever more complex.

Therefore if something is sitting upon the Earth, especially after we already have life on the planet, then we know this thing is composed of billions of microscopic bacteria and other forms of life per teaspoon. The mention of
"dust" cannot possibly be referring to weathered rock. Dirt is a very vague term, but the humble particles sitting on top of the ground is not vague. Once we had all the other beasts described in Genesis these humble particles had to include microscopic life.

Dirt is an all inclusive term and is very vague. For example, what does "dirty" mean? Is sand dirt? Is mulch dirt? Is a cow patty dirt?

But if I am referring to any and all tiny particles sitting upon the ground, these particles regardless of the origin (sand, organic remains, excrement, etc) will be home to millions of microscopic organisms.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Bible never claims we are animated dirt, it uses the term dust, not dirt. Second, the theory of evolution also says that we are animated dust, so you are really off base limiting evolution to apes. What, God created the apes, and then from there we evolved?

Signs at the Scopes Trial (1925) : "Don't make a monkey outta me."

Here's another one :

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Signs at the Scopes Trial (1925) : "Don't make a monkey outta me."

Here's another one :

No need, you've done that yourself. MOTA -- moderator of the Apes.