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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

No need to play the Nazi card. Mr. Ohio is more than a Trump sympathizer. He has shown himself to be quite fanatical in his support for virtually everything Trump says and does in many go-rounds with you where I found your arguments to be reasonable but to no avail. So I'm hit with the fact that in spite of all that you don't understand my reaction.

Because I do not understand the use of "Trump sympathizer" in juxtaposition with Nazi sympathizer.

Trump is the president, elected based on our system of free and fair elections.

He is rude, but no ruder than LBJ or Nixon were in private, so he is simply far more transparent than previous presidents. He is morally compromised, but no more so than JFK or Clinton or FDR, the only difference is that his sins are plastered all over the TV far more than FDR's or JFK's were.

He is under investigation, but so was Clinton (Whitewater), so was Nixon (Watergate), so was Reagan (Iran Contra), so how does that make him any different from previous presidents?

He may have offensive positions, for example climate denial. But all the other presidents except for Carter were nothing more than lip service. Kyoto was not a cure, simply a bandaid to provide a fig leaf. The only president who was actually serious about cutting our dependence on Middle Eastern oil was Carter and they hit him with a phony oil embargo engineered by US oil men resulting in him being booted from office. Trump is simply being honest about the US not doing anything about climate change but doing the bidding of big oil.

So what is the reason for the incredibly insulting attacks on Trump? Because a few white supremacists support him? They are US citizens, just as much as the most militant Black lives matter supporters are too. There are nasty, outrageous, racist jerks that supported Obama. For example the pastor of his church. I didn't hold Obama responsible for some of his worst supporters. If 50 million people vote for someone then it only stands to reason that some of those people will be offensive jerks.

The Bible says to pray for the president. I prayed for Obama, I pray for Trump. There is no Biblical basis or wisdom in likening Trump to a nazi just as there isn't any wisdom in likening Obama to the muslim terrorists.

On the other hand there are things to appreciate about him.

1. What campaign promise did he make that he didn't keep?

(can't say that about any previous president).

2. His picks for Supreme court have been highly qualified and respected irrespective of your political beliefs or the nasty trial they were put through.

(again, not true of some of our previous Supreme court nominees, some of whom were simply political appointees without any real qualifications as a judge).

3. First president we have had with a backbone to go after China, unlike all the other wimps who talked a lot and did nothing.

4. Hasn't got us into a war.

5. Economy is good.

6. His sending the military to the border is simply logistical support for a thousand+ refugees. No guns, no tanks, no basis for the absurd vitriolic attacks from some "reputable" media outlets. Simply doing things in good order.

[awareness]

Brother ZNP,

You sound like you love him :

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother ZNP,

You sound like you love him :

If you can believe such absurdities then what is next, committing atrocities?

What I believe is that the only sound path forward is given by the Bible, to pray for those in authority. The idea that Trump was worse than the Roman Caesars at the time the NT was written is another absurdity.

The purpose for this prayer is that we can live a quiet and peaceable life.

There is no suggestion that being Christians, or moral, or tactful, are prerequisites for us to pray for them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Over Thanksgiving my brother made a very astute point, all of the complaints against Trump are merely preaching to the choir, none of those complaints affect his supporters, they know that and either don't care or agree with Trump. Therefore, all you are doing is highlighting the divide.

Instead, if you would focus on the things that he does that are anathema to his base, then you might actually be effective at motivating a groundswell of indignation towards him. Point out the one thing he does that they hate and you will see them rise up and throw him out.

Simply remind people that Trump rides his golf cart onto the green.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you can believe such absurdities then what is next, committing atrocities?

Now you've gone and done it. You've forced me to bust out with a,

Bahahahahahahah ...

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Because I do not understand the use of "Trump sympathizer" in juxtaposition with Nazi sympathizer.

You're the one who played the Nazi card. Now you're playing it again. Shows you have a weak hand.

Trump is the president, elected based on our system of free and fair elections.

How many times has Trump called the election process rigged and claimed voter fraud? You're not listening to the guy you're arguing for.

He is rude, but no ruder than LBJ or Nixon were in private, so he is simply far more transparent than previous presidents. He is morally compromised, but no more so than JFK or Clinton or FDR, the only difference is that his sins are plastered all over the TV far more than FDR's or JFK's were.

You're putting down Trump's number one strength: His ability to dominate the news cycle day after day. Of course, he has turned public discourse into a reality TV show to accomplish this. What you're calling "transparency" is his total lack of a sense of shame.

He is under investigation, but so was Clinton (Whitewater), so was Nixon (Watergate), so was Reagan (Iran Contra), so how does that make him any different from previous presidents?

He's at least guilty of obstructing justice, violating the US Constitution separation of powers and the emoluments clause. He makes Nixon's crimes look small time.

He may have offensive positions, for example climate denial. But all the other presidents except for Carter were nothing more than lip service. Kyoto was not a cure, simply a bandaid to provide a fig leaf. The only president who was actually serious about cutting our dependence on Middle Eastern oil was Carter and they hit him with a phony oil embargo engineered by US oil men resulting in him being booted from office. Trump is simply being honest about the US not doing anything about climate change but doing the bidding of big oil.

This is patently false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Power_Plan

So what is the reason for the incredibly insulting attacks on Trump? Because a few white supremacists support him? They are US citizens, just as much as the most militant Black lives matter supporters are too. There are nasty, outrageous, racist jerks that supported Obama. For example the pastor of his church. I didn't hold Obama responsible for some of his worst supporters. If 50 million people vote for someone then it only stands to reason that some of those people will be offensive jerks.

I don't like Trump. He's hurting and endangering the country. He encourages White Supremacists. They have grown stronger under his nurturing. I feel it's a civic duty to protest against him.

The Bible says to pray for the president. I prayed for Obama, I pray for Trump.

I believe in freedom of religion and freedom from it. You're welcome to pray for whoever you want. On the other hand, if people in the American colonies had simply prayed for King George we'd still be groveling under one of them. I don't have to grovel before King Trump.

There is no Biblical basis or wisdom in likening Trump to a nazi just as there isn't any wisdom in likening Obama to the muslim terrorists.

Over and over you play the Nazi card. Notice how I refuse to take the bait. Of course, your argument is fantastically anachronistic since neither Trump nor Nazism, nor Muslim terrorists nor Obama are in the Bible. You don't seem to have a sense of when your thoughts are becoming bizarre and irrational.

On the other hand there are things to appreciate about him.

1. What campaign promise did he make that he didn't keep?

Now this is a ridiculous question coming from anyone who is paying attention.

Trump duped people with a lot of unrealistic promises, so it isn't surprising that there are many promises he hasn't fulfilled. His followers loved him because he voiced their wishful fantasies and they wanted to believe his lies that he was a self-made billionaire. There are so many. I'll give you a few examples

He didn't lock up Hillary Clinton.

His Trumpcare "better-than-Obamacare" plan doesn't exist. He promised to abolish Trumpcare. Hasn't happened.

Where' his trillion dollar infrastructure reconstruction? Where's his wall?

He promised he wouldn't take vacations.
He promised a 4 percent economic growth rate each year. It didn't happen in 2017.

He said he would establish a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. Didn't happen. He said he'd raise taxes on the rich including himself.

As a candidate, Trump promised to raise taxes on the rich; as president, he promised tax changes that at a minimum wouldn’t benefit the rich.

Trump promised to break up America’s largest banks by reinstated old Glass-Steagall regulations that prevented financial conglomerates from operating in multiple lines of business.

Trump promised price controls on prescription drugs.

Trump promised to “take the oil” from Iraq to reduce the financial burden of US military policy.

Trump promised many times that he would release his tax returns and promised to put his wealth into a blind trust.

Trump vowed rollback of climate change regulations but said he was committed to upholding clean air and clean water goals. Clean air and water enforcement by EPA has moved in just the opposite direction.

(can't say that about any previous president).

You can't say that about this one either. But, you just did. So, you're wrong, as I just showed.

2. His picks for Supreme court have been highly qualified and respected irrespective of your political beliefs or the nasty trial they were put through.
(again, not true of some of our previous Supreme court nominees, some of whom were simply political appointees without any real qualifications as a judge).

Since when do you care whom the Washington insiders respect? "Drain the Swamp" Trump has no respect for an independent judiciary. Ask Chief Justice Roberts. Trump believes he's appointed to lackeys to the bench, and so should you. That's how it really works. Don't be a dope. They both dissembled during the hearings in order to get in. Kavanaugh in particular destroyed any respect I might have had for him with his shameful performance in the hearings.

3. First president we have had with a backbone to go after China, unlike all the other wimps who talked a lot and did nothing.

In a stupid destructive way.

4. Hasn't got us into a war.

His first term ain't over yet. He has weakened our alliances to the point that if we do get into a war we'll be fighting it alone.

5. Economy is good.

Low age jobs are plentiful. But, the American dream is dying and the life support system is threatened by Trump and the stingy party. The gap between rich and poor grows ever wider.

Trump stole from the government coffers and gave to the very rich, and nothing big happened in the economy as a result. That's bad.

Where are the rising wages, better health care, better schools, better job growth? Now we have less government services and protections, and a debt that will be paid by our grandchildren.

But the one percent is glutted with enough wealth turn the whole thing around if it weren't for greed. We're living in the second Gilded Age.

6. His sending the military to the border is simply logistical support for a thousand+ refugees. No guns, no tanks, no basis for the absurd vitriolic attacks from some "reputable" media outlets. Simply doing things in good order.

Simply a shameful political ploy and misuse of the military personnel and resources.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

He's at least guilty of obstructing justice, violating the US Constitution separation of powers and the emoluments clause. He makes Nixon's crimes look small time.

If he is guilty of those things there should be a closed door hearing, let the house and senate see the evidence. The House now has a very solid Democratic majority and surely a couple of Republicans would also vote for impeachment if there was evidence sufficient to convict. After this last election the Republicans would have to realize that the only way to avoid being destroyed in 2 years is to support impeachment in such a case. I am all for impeaching him if you have solid evidence of a crime. I also believe that impeachment is the only first step. You can't have a sitting president also being tried in a criminal court. Impeach him, then let him defend himself.

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't like Trump. He's hurting and endangering the country. He encourages White Supremacists. They have grown stronger under his nurturing. I feel it's a civic duty to protest against him.

Great. Well human history does not progress in a straight line. If you are absolutely, 100% correct about him, then the benefit of his administration is twofold

1. Motivated the vote
2. Referendum on the immigration issue and the immigrants clearly won.

Originally Posted by zeek

He didn't lock up Hillary Clinton.

His Trumpcare "better-than-Obamacare" plan doesn't exist. He promised to abolish Trumpcare. Hasn't happened.

Where' his trillion dollar infrastructure reconstruction? Where's his wall?

He promised he wouldn't take vacations.
He promised a 4 percent economic growth rate each year. It didn't happen in 2017.

He said he would establish a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. Didn't happen. He said he'd raise taxes on the rich including himself.

As a candidate, Trump promised to raise taxes on the rich; as president, he promised tax changes that at a minimum wouldn’t benefit the rich.

Trump promised to break up America’s largest banks by reinstated old Glass-Steagall regulations that prevented financial conglomerates from operating in multiple lines of business.

Trump promised price controls on prescription drugs.

Trump promised to “take the oil” from Iraq to reduce the financial burden of US military policy.

Trump promised many times that he would release his tax returns and promised to put his wealth into a blind trust.

Trump vowed rollback of climate change regulations but said he was committed to upholding clean air and clean water goals. Clean air and water enforcement by EPA has moved in just the opposite direction.

I think this last election was an overwhelming victory for the Democrats. The voters are speaking. If we think of the collective wisdom the voters made it clear they were not going to let Hillary Clinton be elected and now they are not going to allow Trump to run the country either.

In addition they have made it clear how they feel about immigration and they realize for the first time that their vote does matter and they need to become involved.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

This is patently false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Power_Plan

"The plan will require individual states to meet specific standards with respect to reduction of carbon dioxide emissions"

Reducing carbon dioxide emissions is simply a bandaid. The only genuine "solution" would be to reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide. As the report that was just released points out we are already in the effects of Climate change. What it doesn't point out is that the system is elastic, based on the levels of carbon dioxide we have in the atmosphere we expect much higher effects, it simply takes time to kick in since this change has happened in a "split second" in geologic time.

All the plan intended was to reduce the rate at which the levels increase, not to actually reduce them. Also, Obama's plan only had force in the US, 5% of the world's population. So if successful he would reduce the rate at which 5% of the world is polluting. Again, a band aid.

Third, these plans are voluntary. What happens when all social order collapses like it has in Guatemala, or the Honduras, of Syria, Yemen, Puerto Rico, etc. As these areas are hammered they are not going to pay any attention, if they need to use extremely dirty generators after a catastrophe they will.

Have you considered how much carbon dioxide went into the air from the California fires. Is that factored in? Do they now say "Oh, sorry California, you have completely used up your quota in the fires", no? Then the whole plan is bogus, even if you did keep it the "exceptions to the rule" could easily outweigh any small reduction. It was a bandaid, not going to solve anything. Brace for impact.

Those who have been most active in the research and battle to do something no longer are focused on reducing emissions, rather they are looking at ways to adapt to the new reality. Floating cities, things like that. Maybe in the 70s we had a chance to make some meaningful changes that could have postponed judgement day, but as Arnold Schwarnegger said "judgement day is inevitable, you only postponed it".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Have you considered how much carbon dioxide went into the air from the California fires. Is that factored in? Do they now say "Oh, sorry California, you have completely used up your quota in the fires", no? Then the whole plan is bogus, even if you did keep it the "exceptions to the rule" could easily outweigh any small reduction. It was a bandaid, not going to solve anything. Brace for impact.

I say yes. California has used up their carbon quota. No more fossil fuels for them until next year. Close their gas stations. Shut down their power stations. No federal money for them.

Jerry Brown should be thrown in prison. He is mentally unstable, destroying California. Everything evil he said about Trump should now be done to him. He let all those people in Paradise die, while he played the fiddle. He is a murdering fascist, worst that Hitler, Stalin, or Nero.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If he is guilty of those things there should be a closed door hearing, let the house and senate see the evidence. The House now has a very solid Democratic majority and surely a couple of Republicans would also vote for impeachment if there was evidence sufficient to convict.

That's a naive assumption. There's plenty of evidence. https://www.economist.com/united-sta...Ed3jDOHbYFvknw What is needed is the political will.

After this last election the Republicans would have to realize that the only way to avoid being destroyed in 2 years is to support impeachment in such a case. I am all for impeaching him if you have solid evidence of a crime. I also believe that impeachment is the only first step. You can't have a sitting president also being tried in a criminal court. Impeach him, then let him defend himself.

Impeachment can have unintended political consequences as has been demonstrated in the past after A. Johnson and Clinton. The Democratic base may want impeachment, but the party leaders want to proceed with caution. If the Republicans support impeachment as you said of course that could change.

Great. Well human history does not progress in a straight line. If you are absolutely, 100% correct about him, then the benefit of his administration is twofold

1. Motivated the vote
2. Referendum on the immigration issue and the immigrants clearly won.

The immigration problem is a result of the inability of the major parties in Washington to agree on a rational policy due to politicization. The problem is made worse by Trump's fear-mongering. But, your claim that the immigrants "won" is more of the same.

I think this last election was an overwhelming victory for the Democrats. The voters are speaking. If we think of the collective wisdom the voters made it clear they were not going to let Hillary Clinton be elected and now they are not going to allow Trump to run the country either.

The victory was less than overwhelming. The Democrats won the House of Representatives. They didn't win the Senate. And there's a conservative majority in the SCOTUS. They picked up some Gubernatorial seats some state legislative seats. But, the Republicans have more. The Republicans won big in Florida.

You think it's a president's job is to "run the country"? The POTUS directs one branch of the Federal Government. He's not an absolute monarch or the CEO of the USA. The US Constitution doesn't empower the POTUS to "run the country." That's not how the USA is supposed to work. Your statement suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the US government on your part.

In addition they have made it clear how they feel about immigration and they realize for the first time that their vote does matter and they need to become involved.

Actually there was more than one issue involved. But, right, more people are getting involved which is good for democracy which is a good thing to us who believe in that sort of thing.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's a naive assumption. There's plenty of evidence. https://www.economist.com/united-sta...Ed3jDOHbYFvknw What is needed is the political will.

Now who is being naive. In the US it is not whether or not someone is guilty, it is whether or not you can prove they are guilty.

Originally Posted by zeek

Impeachment can have unintended political consequences as has been demonstrated in the past after A. Johnson and Clinton. The Democratic base may want impeachment, but the party leaders want to proceed with caution. If the Republicans support impeachment as you said of course that could change.

There is no other option. I would absolutely reject the idea of a criminal trial a sitting president. Step 1 -- impeachment. Step 2 -- Trial. Now there is no reason that the evidence would have to be sealed, Mueller's report can be made public and if that is not enough to get powerful public support for impeachment then the case is weak. Just look at the last midterm, the public is not giving Trump a pass, not even in Mississippi.

Originally Posted by zeek

The immigration problem is a result of the inability of the major parties in Washington to agree on a rational policy due to politicization. The problem is made worse by Trump's fear-mongering. But, your claim that the immigrants "won" is more of the same.

The hypocrisy is overwhelming on both sides. Republicans claim they want to strengthen the borders, etc but the biggest violators are Republicans who really want their employees to be illegal aliens that are afraid to speak up lest they get deported. This is why I said the immigrants won because neither party would have ever done a referendum, this election was a referendum.

Originally Posted by zeek

The victory was less than overwhelming. The Democrats won the House of Representatives. They didn't win the Senate. And there's a conservative majority in the SCOTUS. They picked up some Gubernatorial seats some state legislative seats. But, the Republicans have more. The Republicans won big in Florida.

Democrats did as good or better than every single projection. No one projected a victory this big. On one hand they have a very firm control of the house whereas most projections only gave Democrats good odds to win the house, not nearly in such a dominating way.

They don't control the Senate, but how much are they lacking -- 2 seats. In 2 years 33 senators will be up for election, probably 16-17 will be Republican. They saw the heavy losses in this election and they will take that into consideration. I would not be surprised if a few flip here and there. the fear of Trump has to be much less than it was, and if Mueller's report is as damaging as many say it will be (politically, not criminally) then These Republicans may be very eager to distance themselves from him.

Originally Posted by zeek

Actually there was more than one issue involved. But, right, more people are getting involved which is good for democracy which is a good thing to us who believe in that sort of thing.

Compared to the abuses of 200 years ago we have had great improvement. Democracy was an experiment 250 years ago, today it is stronger than ever with China and Russia doing a last ditch effort to undermine it, but once their lies get exposed it will make us stronger and make them look even worse.

[Ohio]

Nixon was almost impeached for spying on the Democrats and lying about it during an election season.

So Trump should be impeached for being spied on by the Democrats and lied to during an election season???