afazio - Spiritual Authority

[Drake]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

This forum is designed to help people who were trapped and have moved on. Their experiences in the the LSM both good, bad and ugly have been very beneficial to countless of people.

CMW,

An internet chat forum by design cannot help people navigate out of an experience. That is an artifact of the nature of chat forums. Certainly it can help to know you are not alone through empathy but then something more structured is needed for someone to process out of an experience. I doubt “countless” have been helped as you claim even in an empathetic way. To claim countless are would be an argument from silence.

Yet some, though having “left” the local churches and the ministry that builds them, apparently have never left mentally or emotionally. And the dialogue they have with others who share their experience has not enabled them to move on. So, the threads become “Brady Bunch reruns”, ultimately arriving at the same half dozen blaming complaints (PL, MOTA, Daystar, One Publication, Blended Brothers, etc.) for just about any topic. That appears as a classic description of group think not unlike what we observe in politics as the cause of every ill (e.g. Russians did it).

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

An internet chat forum by design cannot help people navigate out of an experience. That is an artifact of the nature of chat forums. Certainly it can help to know you are not alone through empathy but then something more structured is needed for someone to process out of an experience. I doubt “countless” have been helped as you claim even in an empathetic way. To claim countless are would be an argument from silence.

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much:

1. ability to pose questions to a wide range of people for variety and depth of response
2. PM for one-on-one specific care
3. you can leave it the second you need or want to
4. anonymity is a protection, if needed
5. anonymity also allows you to ask embarrassing or difficult questions you otherwise may not feel able to ask to someone's face
6. etc. but you get the point

Can you count the number who have been helped? If not, then, by the very nature of a public internet forum where any and many can read, it is "countless".

Originally Posted by Drake

Yet some, though having “left” the local churches and the ministry that builds them, apparently have never left mentally or emotionally. And the dialogue they have with others who share their experience has not enabled them to move on. So, the threads become “Brady Bunch reruns”, ultimately arriving at the same half dozen blaming complaints (PL, MOTA, Daystar, One Publication, Blended Brothers, etc.) for just about any topic. That appears as a classic description of group think not unlike what we observe in politics as the cause of every ill (e.g. Russians did it).

Drake

I can't speak to PL or Daystar, but the MOTA, One Pub, and blended brothers are issues that affect and restrict the saints in the local churches TO THIS VERY SECOND. There is good reason for concern to exist about them since they are present realities. There is light outside the local churches and this light is being systematically demonized and kept away from many who are trapped in the LC system but fear for their literal life or safety if they leave ("Did you hear? So-and-so person who left the church a couple years ago died from a head on collision last week" [knowing look and head shake that indicates both parties agree that if that person hadn't left the church to meet with another Christian church then they would still be alive)].

Drake, what do you think about the quotes I posted from One Pub and afaithfulword.org?

Thanks,

Trapped

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much

I agree 100%

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I agree 100%

I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs

Likewise you can see the cultic behavior in the book of Acts with those of the circumcision. Apollos was in error. And the book of James is addressed to " to the twelve tribes which [are] in the dispersion" again, an error on their part. Kudos for James for having a burden for those in this cult, and thank the Lord that there is a word for those to help them come out of a cult, but it is not a strange thing.

Beloved, take not [as] strange the fire [of persecution] which has taken place amongst you for [your] trial, as if a strange thing was happening to you; 1Pet 4:12

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has. (P.S. you are really knocking a place that you sure do frequent a lot!) I'm so glad there are people who care enough to stick around here long enough for people like me to finally float in. In fact, it's design is one of the very things that helps so much:

Of course, this forum has been extremely valuable to both current and former members, and it's no wonder that LSM and its surrogates have sought to discredit it on every level. Could they sue this forum and shut it down, they would have done so long ago.

With Lee and LSM it's never been about one off questionable events, but a strategic pattern of deception using the powers of pen and podium. Without this interactive internet forum, we could never have connected millions of dots spanning decades and continents. There's definite reasons why "lurkers" outnumber "posters" like ten to one. Whenever we are dealing with fear-based institutions, anonymity is essential.

Another tremendous eye-opener for me has been the tremendous diversity of direction that former members have gone. Due to the exclusive nature of this ministry of condemnation, ex-members have become atheists, shamans, Jews, LGBT, mental health patients, etc. We must ask why! Why have so many, especially 2nd generation, been totally unprepared for life after LSM? Why so many familial conflicts? Why so much dysfunction? Why so much inner turmoil, even for those whose only goal is to serve the Lord outside of the confines of the LC system?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Wrong. This forum has helped me navigate out of an experience......more than anyone else has.


Can you count the number who have been helped? If not, then, by the very nature of a public internet forum where any and many can read, it is "countless".

Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.

Originally Posted by Trapped

There is light outside the local churches and this light is being systematically demonized and kept away from many who are trapped in the LC system but fear for their literal life or safety if they leave ("Did you hear? So-and-so person who left the church a couple years ago died from a head on collision last week" [knowing look and head shake that indicates both parties agree that if that person hadn't left the church to meet with another Christian church then they would still be alive)

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake, what do you think about the quotes I posted from One Pub and afaithfulword.org?

Thanks,
Trapped

I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.

Here are the facts. Living Stream Ministry publishes the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and other writers selectively. It is not their mission to publish everyone who wants to publish something. It's not their obligation to publish anyone's writings even if that person claims to be in fellowship with the ministry. Others may publish and have but in so doing they may not claim themselves representatives of Witness Lee. Neither do they need to apologize for defining that mission or tenaciously sticking to it.

I have hundreds of authors in my library and I read from them almost every week. It's not about control, deprivation, fear mongering, and other colorful schemes you and others attribute to the local churches and to the ministry that builds them. The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Hope that helps.
Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized. ]

Drake, watch out here comes a "drive by"!

Not systematized? You would know better than me, I was only in the LC for a year and that notion was pushed on me twice explicitly, I don't know how many times implicitly. It was also discussed at the dinner table at length with a dozen or so "saints" in Irvine. I guess you just chalk this one up to another isolated incident... At what point are we allowed to look at these isolated incidents and come to the conclusion that there is a systematic problem?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake, watch out here comes a "drive by"!

Not systematized? You would know better than me, I was only in the LC for a year and that notion was pushed on me twice explicitly, I don't know how many times implicitly. It was also discussed at the dinner table at length with a dozen or so "saints" in Irvine. I guess you just chalk this one up to another isolated incident... At what point are we allowed to look at these isolated incidents and come to the conclusion that there is a systematic problem?

Exactly LofT. Not systematized.

systematize implies arranging according to a predetermined scheme.

You are describing one of those off the cuff "today Billy Joe MacAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge." type discussions that so often happen around a dinner table while passing biscuits, mashed taters 'n gravy.

Not quite a drive by though because you actually appear to want to engage in a rational conversation this time.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that.

Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

Drake, can you provide documentation for this fake news story?

In the name of a fair and balanced forum, I want to see some verification in writing for this account from some holiness denomination. I'll take any local news article.

Otherwise what you said is all lies or hearsay. With all of your legal experience, you should know this. And since the "Recovery" is supposed to single-handedly represent "God's Economy" on earth, how can you make excuses by comparing yourselves with "degraded" denominations?

[awareness]

Interloping again.

Originally Posted by Drake

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Interloping again.

And I've bemoaned this silence repeatedly. I sure wish we had a list of all those that have left the LC. They prolly outnumber those that are presently in the LC.

I guess you're glad we don't hear from most of them.

It doesn't matter to me either way, awareness. However, if there are droves that have left as you imply (I know of no such thing but for sake of argument) then perhaps they moved on. I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

I could ask the same of you?? ?? ??
I do it because I enjoy connecting with LCer's. But I know plenty that don't waste their time on any LC forums.

In fact, the sister that initially introduced me to LC forums, by linking a post on The Bereans.net, doesn't want anything to do with being on LC forums. She's moved on. She now studies cults. I wonder why??

Her husband, not a LCer, is, or was, a genius Orthodox Jew (still a genius). He too has an interest in cults. I wonder why??

Oh darn. That dreaded rerun again. Sorry.

It is so important to warn others about the LSM and there is almost no recent content for the poor college student that find themselves in this group. Plus new folks come along every so often that can benefit from those who have been on the inside and seen the LSM for what it really is.

I agree it is also fun/interesting to hear from others. My final months in the LSM I felt as if I was going crazy - the blatant deception and corrosive culture is far from being the Ministey of the Age - maybe quite worse. Go figure, I leave the LSM church and find this website where others have also seen what I saw!

I don’t talk about my time in the LSM outside of this forum. Quite frankly it’s embarrassing and I’m far too prideful to be associate with such a group, plus unless someone has been in a cult, they wouldn’t understand anyway. The entire premise that Witness Lee promotes is intriguing until you understand the reality of it. Either he was the MOTA and his ministry is the MOTA or he wasn’t - and it isn’t.

Read as much as you can about the ministry, visit their churches if you need to, seek the council of a strong believer outside of the LSM as an unbiased source of guidance. Most importantly read scripture and pray that the Spirit will lead you to truth. I believe the Lord will be faithful in that, he was to me, and for that I’m grateful.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I mean think about it... why would anyone waste the precious commodity of time measured in years and decades to continuously day in and day out wallow in gall and rancor about the place they have supposedly been delivered from??

Matthew 18:31 "When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened."

What do you think the king said? "Why are you are just wallowing in gall and rancor! Get over it!"

Do you think the king would put up with reports of unrighteousness? Of course not! Yet we're supposed to pretend the LCs didn't happen, and just "get over it"? Or how about, "Oh, we don't care for right and wrong! We just care for life!"

Many do quietly move on, of course. But with some, what they saw and heard bothers their conscience, so they say something. They find a pubic forum like this, and "tell it to the church"; and if others pooh-pooh their complaints, they'll repeat them, until they feel they're heard.

Now, having said that, maybe I've already been "heard", and am merely projecting my own unmet needs, resentments and anxieties here on this forum onto "the ministry", just as I hold that Witness Lee did with his ministry onto "the church" vis-a-vis "degraded Christianity". But to my credit, I'm not charging $$ for my writing, nor propping up my dead-beat kids via the sale of trinkets on this website.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I would second that. This forum definitely filled in the blanks on a lot of things I didn't know and helped me make sense of my experience in the LRC. It also helped me to move on so that I could "give thanks for all things" and testify "that all things have worked together for good".

I have noticed that the impression is often given that what we experienced in the LRC was a strange thing.

Jehovah Witness — 150 million
7th day Adventist — 25 million
Mormons — 14.8 million

In addition experts estimate that 2.5 million Americans have joined cultic groups and had their kids raised in that environment in the last 30+ years https://www.icsahome.com/elibrary/faqs

The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The Local Church isn't some pure replacement for "degraded Christianity"; rather, like the JW and SDA and Mormons, it's a poster child for it. Post-Protestant Christianity is full of delusional, self-styled "Seers" and their misled captive flocks. As such, it's worth discussing this group in it's larger context, that of religious, self-appointed "deputy Gods" manipulating gullible and ignorant people for their own personal gain. One can learn a lot - the LC isn't the only unbalanced Christian group out there.

So let's share what we learned. I learned a lot and I am thankful for it and I feel I have matured as a Christian as a result. I would say what I wrote on James is a comprehensive discussion on what I learned, how I was helped and how I matured as a result.

[Drake]

-3

Aron,

The imperative of this section of Matthew chapter 18 is forgiveness of your brother.... 70x7 times (v22) is the number of times we are charged to forgive a brother and by not forgiving a brother completely as he was forgiven by His Master will result in the Heavenly Father (v35) delivering that evil slave (v32) to the torturers (v34) for a complete and thorough repayment.

Whatever other utility you derive from this scripture do not miss that!

Now, you’ve appropriated this verse to make a different point (justifying airing your grievances in a public chat forum) but the point you seek to establish is the very opposite point the scripture makes... that of forgiving your brother of what seems an endless number of times. If one has forgiven their brother then what accounts are left unsettled (v23)? That was the message to Peter (v21-22).... not just seven times forgiving but forgiving to the point you lose track as you were also forgiven by the Master.

Furthermore, the Master is the only One qualified to mete out justice and He does and so the servants leave the matter in His capable hands.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Maybe that's what it was like in your LC. In my LC, the local elder tried to give a regional conference on a 10-year-old book by Witness Lee, and was told, "give a conference on the latest publication". He wasn't even allowed to pick what LSM materials to cover!

And Titus Chu tried to get LSM to publish his books? Do tell. And Dong Yu Lan? Interesting. I didn't know any of this.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why is it that the Bible is filled with reruns too?

Paul said in Galatians 4:19 that he was "in travail again" until they would get Christ formed in them. He had to repeat himself, 'till they got it.

Next verse, he said he'd love to change his tone, in addressing them. But he couldn't change it until they got the message. Keep doing what you're doing, I'll keep repeating the mantra.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish.

Seriously? Have you read what you wrote here?

The One Publication edict was never about what LSM would publish. W. Lee issued this edict firstly in 1986 in order to shut down regional circulations, mostly monthly papers, by other leaders in the Recovery. There were about a half dozen or more of these. W. Lee, being insecure concerning his own ministry, saw these papers as a personal threat to his family business. At that time Bill Freeman of Seattle left, while others simply kowtowed to Lee's demands.

Brothers like Titus Chu agreed to this only out of respect for W. Lee. After Lee passed, TC decided that what he had to minister was important enough to print in the vacuum left by W. Lee. Like thousands of ministers before him, the Lord put the burden on his heart to publish his ministry. TC never asked LSM to publish his books. TC found his own publisher.

The Blendeds then saw this as a threat to their power and their bottom line. The President of LSM Benson Philips saw this as a business decision. Either live with lost revenue, or expel TC and like-minded brothers in the Midwest. Once they negotiated a back room deal with Barker and Reetzke of Chicago, they saw the opportunity as ripe for action.

Thus the One Publication edict was a divisive work of the flesh. It placed LSM's financial needs above the needs and liberties of God's people. Like Diotrephes of old (3 John 9), LSM loved to be first, and not only that, they demanded that none be second or third. Like the Judaizers of old, LSM was willing to violate N.T. oneness of the body of Christ in order to bring all the LC's under subjection of their false authority. Like the Popes of the past two Millennia, LSM supposes that authority can be passed on by decree, but God is no respecter of persons. His Son alone is the Head of the body, not Pope, not Vicar, not Holy See, not "Seer of the divine revelation," not Blendeds, and definitely not their MOTA.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, Trapped. You aren't "out" either and if those whom you rely on helping you navigate out aren't out themselves then I think its premature to say you are out. Time will tell, of course and I wish you the best in whatever path your journey takes you.

As to "countless"... that is an argument from silence. A logical fallacy argument.

Sigh......please excuse my erroneous tense usage. Helpful in the process of navigatING me out then, sheesh. With this kind of thing there are actually levels of navigating out, and this forum has helped navigate me out of some initial levels, that is a fact.

The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.

If this forum wasn't helping people get out, DCP wouldn't spend any time monitoring it.

Originally Posted by Drake

I hear that in this forum from time to time... yet, I don't doubt some people have that thought... it's human. I heard similar reasonings in the holiness denomination "brother so-n-so got drunk, crashed his car and died, and in his drunken state went straight hell. He was our best song director to date and we'll miss him. So, don't drink or you might end up in hell". Stuff like that. Yet, your allegation is that the fear of getting whacked by God is systematized to keep people away from "the light outside the local churches". That is a ridiculous notion. Nothing has been systematized to keep people in fear from reading anything their lil ol heart desires. If you heard someone say it then I'll accept your testimony but that is an isolated incident. Just anecdotal not systematized.

This isn't a good comparison. In your example, the warning is against a sinful action - drinking to excess and then driving - with a direct negative result, the responsibility of which is not attributed to God. Anyone, Christian or not, in the LCs or out of it, would warn against that.

In the many examples former and current LCers have posted, the warning is that you seriously risk God arranging for your death if you leave the local churches. Couldn't be more different.

If your example stated "don't leave the denomination or you might get in a car crash and die", okay, but it doesn't make giving that impression to people right in any way, whether it's in the LC or in a denomination.

My testimony is not an isolated incident. It occurred repeatedly throughout my decades in the church. Many others have experienced the same thing, as evidenced on this forum. It is quite a shock to find a group of people you have never met from across decades and places who have also experienced and lived under the exact same "God will strike you down if you leave." This, to any logical person, would indicate a systemic form of control based on fear. Or at the very least a thought from the pit of hell that was freely allowed to be promulgated throughout the churches.

Originally Posted by Drake

I read your response and did not feel a compelled from the Lord to convince you or correct those erroneous conclusions. But since you asked and upon reconsideration before Him I'll take that opening as from the Lord.

Straight talk. You concluded "a1. Read and speak only Lee..."

I didn't ask what you thought of my conclusions. I asked what you thought of the quotes I posted. Yes, they are selected quotes because otherwise I would have to post the entire document again, but those quotes are there in black and white, and I'm curious what you would have to say about the direct quotes specifically.

You also only addressed the One Pub generally and did not say anything about quotes from afaithfulword.org concerning Lee as the wise master builder who ended God's overarching principle throughout the ages of there being a minister of the age.

Originally Posted by Drake

Had you said "publish only Lee" you would have been closer but still not 100% accurate. The One Publication makes it perfectly clear what Living Stream Ministry PUBLISHERS will PUBLISH. So you used material to shore up your concept by selectively picking statements to make your case. Yet, if you had fairly quoted other parts of the document you could not make the rational conclusion that you did above. In just a short time in this forum you have developed accusations based on selective reading. That takes us back to the very first point in this post. That is a pit, a quagmire that you should avoid... especially as a christian.

1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy.

2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?

3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?

4. The One Publication had every opportunity to make clear that it is only talking about what LSM will publish. That is an incredibly clear statement that a 12 year old could make in one short paragraph that no one would or should have an argument with. Paragraphs 4-5 do touch on it, however inadequately and clumsily. Somehow, though, an entire group of educated men could not make that very, very clear statement in pages upon pages of a boggy swamp of meandering text? Here, let me do it for you: "Living Stream Ministry exists to record and publish the ministry as interpreted and presented by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Living Stream Ministry will only publish works by these two saints. Anyone else who wishes to publish anything should seek to use another publisher and is not considered to be part of Nee or Lee's ministries." Easy. Done. Sign off and walk away.

5. The first sentence of the 6th paragraph states: "At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us."

At first blush this sounds good (in that it seems like there is an opening for others), but the problem is they added the phrase "among us." If this is simply LSM stating what LSM will publish, and that what they publish is referred to as "the one publication", then the phrase "among us" has no business being there. "Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery.

6. "While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied."

Again, "while we all have a basic right to publish" sounds good at first blush, look what it is followed by: "we are governed by a higher vision". The principle this lays out is "yes, you have a right to publish BUT if you were really under the cross you won't."

What does "we in the Lord's recovery have been 'restricted in one publication'" mean, Drake?

Just because some saints have been nurtured and supplied by Nee/Lee's one publication, gives absolutely no credence whatsoever to the next sentence that "the benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied." This is like saying "for years sweet potatoes have supplied me with many nutrients. The benefits of being restricted to only sweet potatoes can hardly be denied." I mean....come on.

I will stop there for now, although I could keep going.

Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP.

Originally Posted by Drake

Here are the facts. Living Stream Ministry publishes the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and other writers selectively. It is not their mission to publish everyone who wants to publish something. It's not their obligation to publish anyone's writings even if that person claims to be in fellowship with the ministry. Others may publish and have but in so doing they may not claim themselves representatives of Witness Lee. Neither do they need to apologize for defining that mission or tenaciously sticking to it.

See how easy and clear that was? No one would or should have a problem with that! Why didn't the One Pub say that? Your 6 sentence paragraph is all that needed to be said, if that indeed is all that the One Pub is about. But it's not......The One Pub is saying and trying to do AND RESTRICT so much more, which is why many have a big problem with it.

Originally Posted by Drake

I have hundreds of authors in my library and I read from them almost every week. It's not about control, deprivation, fear mongering, and other colorful schemes you and others attribute to the local churches and to the ministry that builds them. The One Publication is not about what you can read but about what they will publish. If you don't want to read Watchman Nee or Witness Lee writings don't. Read something else. Frankly, it's between you and the Lord......as is their right to publish whomever they prefer. If you want to publish something go to any number of christian publishers and maybe they will or maybe they will "get back to you". If you prefer to read books published by other publishers then go do that too.... you can have a book by almost any christian author you like, including Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, with just a few clicks on Amazon. No one will hunt you down so there is no need to feel trapped... go before the Lord and do what the Master tells you to do.

Oh I definitely do read what I want to and what the Lord leads me to, and I'm not trapped by the One Pub at all. But the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position. For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Regarding your statement about my development on this forum, I would have to say that sounds like something that someone who is monitoring and collecting information about posters and their trajectory on this forum would say......like DCP........For time's sake I have to stop here, but there is more I could say.

Trapped,

Thanks for your note. There is no rush so if you have more to say then when you have time post it and we can discuss. Lay it all out.

Yet, don't imagine that DCP is overly interested in monitoring this forum..... at least, if you are basing that on what I say. My viewpoints are my own and do not represent anybody or any group. Strictly, this is the humble view of a simple duck enjoying the lovely place referred to in song as God's green garden yet with a pond. That is what I said when I came to this forum and its still true.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

Thanks for your note. There is no rush so if you have more to say then when you have time post it and we can discuss. Lay it all out.

Yet, don't imagine that DCP is overly interested in monitoring this forum..... at least, if you are basing that on what I say. My viewpoints are my own and do not represent anybody or any group. Strictly, this is the humble view of a simple duck enjoying the lovely place referred to in song as God's green garden yet with a pond. That is what I said when I came to this forum and its still true.

Drake

Drake,

As you can imagine, going through the One Pub is time consuming. I would prefer you respond to what I have written so far (as your time allows, of course) before I invest more time. I do not have so many extraneous hours in my day that I can devote to writing pages upon pages on the entire One Pub when what I've said already is sufficient. I've put time into what I've said so far. If you can respond to it and there is profit to the discussion, great. Then I can have a way to keep going to lay more out.

Trapped

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Drake,

As you can imagine, going through the One Pub is time consuming. I would prefer you respond to what I have written so far (as your time allows, of course) before I invest more time. I do not have so many extraneous hours in my day that I can devote to writing pages upon pages on the entire One Pub when what I've said already is sufficient. I've put time into what I've said so far. If you can respond to it and there is profit to the discussion, great. Then I can have a way to keep going to lay more out.

Trapped

Okay, sure, Trapped.

I, like you, have limited time. So my responses will be bite size like a conversation and not dissertationesque. We can always go back and pick other points up.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The "countless" thing is most certainly not from silence. I have read numerous posts on this forum of people who actually say they are so glad they came across this website and that it helped them. Many often just post that much and then disappear to go on and lead their normal lives out of the LC. The fact that some people exist who overcame the inertia to register and post that information means there are others experiencing the same thing who simply did not put in writing their same experience. This is an argument from fact, sorry not sorry, bro.

Trapped,

This may seem like a minor point in this discourse but it isn’t. The reason that it is a very important point is that many posters in this forum fall into the same false argument from silence. What do you consider countless? You said numerous posts. Numerous is not countless. Was it 5? 10? 100? Even if you point to a 1000 passerby’s that is not countless. The fact is you, I, nor anybody else can point to countless anything. I would not even use the descriptor “countless” to describe the total number of members in the local churches worldwide. Would you? If there are not countless members, current and former, in the local churches, then one cannot reasonably argue that there are countless current and former members coming to this forum! The countless argument fails on the math alone.

Now, if one argues that countless means any number beyond what could be counted on one’s fingers and toes then i’ll concede the point. However, countless in the context of this topic is simply an exaggeration used for underscoring one’s point. I get that but beyond that it is simply an argument from silence. I’ll yield to your “numerous” though frankly I can only recall a dozen or two at the most.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped,

This may seem like a minor point in this discourse but it isn’t. The reason that it is a very important point is that many posters in this forum fall into the same false argument from silence. What do you consider countless? You said numerous posts. Numerous is not countless. Was it 5? 10? 100? Even if you point to a 1000 passerby’s that is not countless. The fact is you, I, nor anybody else can point to countless anything. I would not even use the descriptor “countless” to describe the total number of members in the local churches worldwide. Would you? If there are not countless members, current and former, in the local churches, then one cannot reasonably argue that there are countless current and former members coming to this forum! The countless argument fails on the math alone.

Now, if one argues that countless means any number beyond what could be counted on one’s fingers and toes then i’ll concede the point. However, countless in the context of this topic is simply an exaggeration used for underscoring one’s point. I get that but beyond that it is simply an argument from silence. I’ll yield to your “numerous” though frankly I can only recall a dozen or two at the most.

Drake

The meaning I had assigned to "countless" is more like "many but uncountable", mostly by virtue of it being an internet forum. Not countless in the sense of the sheer number who have been helped is so vast it is impossible to count, which I don't believe is the case, even though its impact is not insignificant to those who it has helped, and I believe it has helped many. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the U.S. there exists an approximate count of saints, so as you said, if the whole is countable, then the lesser part who leave cannot therefore be "countless" or "uncountable". I had interpreted "countless" as "unable to be counted", since really, we don't have a way of counting, which I think is evident from my posts where I reference people being helped who never spoke a peep here.

But yeah, I don't think we disagree on this, just maybe a slightly different interpretation of a word that once discussed is made clear.

Thanks.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The meaning I had assigned to "countless" is more like "many but uncountable", mostly by virtue of it being an internet forum. Not countless in the sense of the sheer number who have been helped is so vast it is impossible to count, which I don't believe is the case, even though its impact is not insignificant to those who it has helped, and I believe it has helped many. If I'm not mistaken, I think in the U.S. there exists an approximate count of saints, so as you said, if the whole is countable, then the lesser part who leave cannot therefore be "countless" or "uncountable". I had interpreted "countless" as "unable to be counted", since really, we don't have a way of counting, which I think is evident from my posts where I reference people being helped who never spoke a peep here.

But yeah, I don't think we disagree on this, just maybe a slightly different interpretation of a word that once discussed is made clear.

Thanks.

The difference in viewpoint explains the disconnect. I had the Abrahamic view -" look at the stars and see if you count them", or "your seed will be as the sand of the sea".. yours was the view of many but unable to count.

Thanks for that clarification.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

"Among us" is one of the many subtle phrases distributed throughout the document to extend LSM's self-imposed restriction from LSM onto the entire Lord's recovery...

.. the One Publication IS about being "restricted" to "one publication" "among us". I am glad you do not follow it, but your not following it does not validate it's position.

Hear, hear. The "Spiritual Authority" in the LC is self-created and then imposed on others, who accept it because, well, it's "spiritual authority". Doesn't matter if it is illogical and capricious, if it's at variance with the Bible and even one's conscience. It is the vehicle for the kingdom of the self, writ large. As Jesus repeatedly taught, it's "the way of the gentiles", but it should not be that way among the disciples. (Matt 20:25,26; cf 1 Pet 5:3)

[Ohio]

Only one of the countless WordSmiths at LSM's DCP could muddy our discussion of spiritual authority and divert our attention to the actual meaning of the word "countless."

Shall we also discuss the true meaning of what the word "is" is? As in what "is" the one publication policy?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Hear, hear. The "Spiritual Authority" in the LC is self-created and then imposed on others, who accept it because, well, it's "spiritual authority". Doesn't matter if it is illogical and capricious, if it's at variance with the Bible and even one's conscience. It is the vehicle for the kingdom of the self, writ large. As Jesus repeatedly taught, it's "the way of the gentiles", but it should not be that way among the disciples. (Matt 20:25,26; cf 1 Pet 5:3)

The Blendeds build their One Publication Policy on the sinking sand of Lee's teachings, not the scripture.

Supposedly W. Lee built his One Publication Policy on the practices of Nee and Lee in China during the 1930's and 1940's.

But if we read Nee's books during this period, such as TNCCL and Further Talks, we learn that Nee never mentioned this Policy. On the contrary Nee taught that LC's should be open to many ministries, and according to the leading of their elders, should be able to choose and reject any ministry they desire.

Compare that to afaithfulword.com

[Drake]

These first three points are similar. I'll start with them.

Originally Posted by Trapped

1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy.

Trapped, this is an argument of semantics. We know who authored the document. They don't need to add their name in the title. I see no infraction in the title... and if there were it doesn't even rise to the level of the crime of spitting on the sidewalk.

Originally Posted by Trapped

2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?

Because there is very little distinction? Or if there is a distinction it is the one publishes and distributes the ministry and the other(s) references that ministry in their distinctive ministries. There are many parts of the ministry covering different aspects. LSM the publishing arm and the trainings, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-studyof the Bible broadcast, etc. and the serving ones sometimes but not always overlap in some of those aspects.

You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?

Originally Posted by Trapped

3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

Thanks
Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

The royal "we"; everyone in LC-land knows what it means. In cultic fringe groups one eventually gets that there are two sets of meanings: one for the public 'face', and another for internal use. So Witness Lee could tell Judge Seyranian, "Here, we don't control anyone", while Ray Graver was busy telling Bill Mallon, "Here, we do what we are told".

When you see words like "restriction" used in the LC, please understand that there's an external "face" meaning and an internal "operational" meaning. The semantics of cult-speak, as it were.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by aron

The royal "we"; everyone in LC-land knows what it means.

See and I thought it was “Countess”, which is also very confusing, and looking back - doesn’t make any sense.

Glad Drake cleared that one up for everyone.

[Trapped]

Trapped said: "1. The title of the document is "Publication Work IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY". If it is simply supposed to be stating what LSM will publish, it should be titled "LSM's Publication Work". Easy."

Originally Posted by Drake

Trapped, this is an argument of semantics. We know who authored the document. They don't need to add their name in the title. I see no infraction in the title... and if there were it doesn't even rise to the level of the crime of spitting on the sidewalk.

You are right! It is an argument of semantics! "Semantics" is a branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. And proper communication is all about the meaning of words. So this is indeed an argument concerning meaning. Thanks for defining what kind of argument it is.

What is the meaning of the phrase "in the Lord's recovery"? What does that mean? I will leave a blank space for you to answer that: ______________________________________________

Why not use the phrase "in the Living Stream Ministry", which is the thing that is actually doing the publication work? This choice of phrase is not insignificant because the reach of the two "entities" (for lack of a better word, although calling TLR "an entity" isn't right, I just don't know what else to use) is vastly different, and is very much at the heart of the matter.

1. LSM: a publishing house located in Anaheim, CA.

Scope: the one building on one street in one city in which it resides (or however it is set up these days).

2. The Lord's recovery: a phrase bandied around "among us" to mean the local churches. I have been "in the Lord's recovery" for a long time and no amount of wordsmithing, protesting, deflection, denying, or arguing will change the fact that "the Lord's recovery" refers to the "proper" local churches around the globe. Period.

"The Lord's recovery " = "we in the church life" = "the local churches" = "the saints" = "those in the the central lane of the ministry" = "those who receive LSM's announcements for the semi-annual trainings" = "those who are on localchurches.org", etc, etc, etc. All referring to the same conglomeration of people.

Scope: worldwide to include hundreds of thousands of people.

By titling the letter "Publication Work in the Lord's recovery", it is communicated right out of the gate that the practices put forth in the document of "being restricted in one publication" are to be adopted by those hundreds of thousands of people in the Lord's recovery. If it is just LSM stating that it will only publish Nee or Lee, which is what you said it is, "in the Lord's recovery" has no business being there.

--------

Trapped said: "2. The One Pub is signed by "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery". If it is simply about what LSM will publish, why wasn't it signed by LSM, rather than by a group who purport to represent and direct the entire Lord's recovery?"

Originally Posted by Drake

Because there is very little distinction? Or if there is a distinction it is the one publishes and distributes the ministry and the other(s) references that ministry in their distinctive ministries. There are many parts of the ministry covering different aspects. LSM the publishing arm and the trainings, DCP, Bibles for America, Bibles for "country", Affirmation & Critique, Lord's Move in Europe, Life-study of the Bible broadcast, etc. and the serving ones sometimes but not always overlap in some of those aspects.

I believe the group of blended co-workers are composed of LSM and non-LSM brothers. Some in the group are representatives of LSM (i.e. are on LSM payroll, have an @lsm.org email address, are authorized to speak as representatives of LSM), while the others in the group are not, and have no legal affiliation with LSM. "LSM" and "the blended co-workers in the Lord's recovery" are two distinct sets of people, yes with some overlap, but they are not the same.

If this innocent document is just LSM stating that LSM will only publish Nee or Lee, why would a group of co-workers that include brothers who have no authorization to speak for LSM be the signatories? Because LSM's legal and spiritual authority stops at their own doors. But the co-workers/brothers/today's-apostles' authority, in practice, reaches into each of the local churches.....thus bringing the proclaimed restriction into the laps of each local church.

Originally Posted by Drake

You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?

In your analogy, as I understand it, the various LSM-related entities are akin to the various colleges in a university, and the blended co-workers are akin to university management but who are involved in different colleges (LSM-related entities).

In this analogy, the students and alumni are the saints in the local churches. If the university is for the producing and building up of educated graduates (i.e. if the ministry is for the churches), why is the university sending a letter out to it's alumni telling them they should be restricted to only read what that university puts out? If the university did a good job, the students should be amply equipped to discern for themselves what will further their academic/human (spiritual) growth.

---------

Trapped said: "3. How do you interpret the latter half of the very first sentence of One Pub: "...we have long realized that there should be one publication among us." What on earth is that saying? Please explain. Who is "we" and who is "us"? LSM hasn't been mentioned yet in the document by this point, and the signers are not "LSM", so who is we and us?"

Originally Posted by Drake

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

This is cute, but "at minimum" is not the whole answer. "Among us" means "among the saints in the local churches". The phrase "among us" is used 23 times in One Pub. In the 8th paragraph we finally get a taste of a definition of what "among us" means:

"But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches."

"Among us" means among all the local churches. "Among us" most certainly does not just mean the blended co-workers.

What does it mean that "...we have long realized there should be one publication among us [the local churches]"?

Thanks,

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

You're trying to stovepipe the whole. Serving ones could be be involved in different aspects in some way several times a year. To use a secular analogy its more like a university and the different aspects are the colleges. The people who manage the university can be involved in different colleges but all are under the same policies and practices of the university. The co-workers, no matter their specialty all agree on the need for one publication and they use that as a common touchstone from which to execute their individual function.

That makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't it work that way?

At minimum the "we" and "us" are the co-workers the signatories to the document. However, if you asked the brothers and sisters in the local churches if they hold the same sentiment I am pretty sure that the majority would agree. Yet, technically speaking the "we and "us" must refer to the co-workers who are carrying out the ministry and signed the document.

This post is entirely deceptive. This One Publication "Policy" was an edict, not just for all those on the LSM paid staff, but for all those related to LC's around the globe. The actual edict to the workers around the globe was not just to stop publishing, but to stop ministering, to cease and desist, and allow LSM to rule all the LC's. Read the warning letters sent to Titus Chu by these "co-workers." LSM's threats of takeover not just affected TC's publishing interests, but impacted every Midwest elder and LC. Every Midwest elder was to be brought under LSM's dominion.

Don't believe me? Go back and read these letters. And take a good hard look at the callous attitude displayed by these "coworkers" towards the actual churches and the saints. But make no mistake about it. What LSM has done was no different than what the Judaizers did to Paul and his ministry among the Gentiles. The names and the details may have changed, but the motives and the methods have remained the same.