ZNP Blog -

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Of course doings and not just hearings are needed....the question here is what compels the doer and does the compelling force instigate anything else.

For instance, if I were to ask you to describe American football and you told me it consist of tens of thousands of fans screaming and yelling, eating hotdogs, popcorn, nachos, drinking beer and players trying to hurt each on the field then I would say you know something about American football but only on the surface... in reality you don’t really know the essence of football.

I wouldn’t go as far as afazio appeared to go in the main forum in finding fault with James, but she had a point that many problems in the early church could be sourced back to James and those he was shepherding because he was devoid of proper explanation (and presumably an understanding) of the essence of American football.

Thanks for the conversation... it really was civil and thought provoking rising above the usual canned speeches in the main forum.

Drake

I agree that the account of James in the book of Acts and inferred from Galatians is indicative of an error in the early church.

However, none of that is evidence of an error in the epistle of James. Instead the book of Acts also clearly depicts the error of Paul yet no one infers from that that his epistles are also in error. Likewise, the gospels reveal Peter's error and again no one then infers this error is in his epistles. You need to do much better than pointing out that James was involved in error in Acts to discredit his epistle.

Going to your Football analogy: one aspect of American football is its value for fans (big money maker), one aspect is the coaching of the game (strategy and tactics), one aspect is the players training and health, and one very critical aspect is the referees. You cannot ignore any one of these aspects. If James is identifying where to "throw the flag" then that also is part of the game.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree that the account of James in the book of Acts and inferred from Galatians is indicative of an error in the early church.

However, none of that is evidence of an error in the epistle of James. Instead the book of Acts also clearly depicts the error of Paul yet no one infers from that that his epistles are also in error. Likewise, the gospels reveal Peter's error and again no one then infers this error is in his epistles. You need to do much better than pointing out that James was involved in error in Acts to discredit his epistle.

Going to your Football analogy: one aspect of American football is its value for fans (big money maker), one aspect is the coaching of the game (strategy and tactics), one aspect is the players training and health, and one very critical aspect is the referees. You cannot ignore any one of these aspects. If James is identifying where to "throw the flag" then that also is part of the game.

I haven’t concluded that James was in error in his epistle...just that ..it is lacking content concerning the New Testament economy and therefore its utility in building the Body of Christ is at best limited.

But you think otherwise... that’s fine. Therefore, since visiting orphans and widows is important and indicates a proof point of James’ practical understanding of Gods NT economy then .,. How many orphans widows have you visited in 2018 thus far?

Thx
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I haven’t concluded that James was in error in his epistle...just that ..it is lacking content concerning the New Testament economy and therefore its utility in building the Body of Christ is at best limited.

But you think otherwise... that’s fine. Therefore, since visiting orphans and widows is important and indicates a proof point of James’ practical understanding of Gods NT economy then .,. How many orphans widows have you visited in 2018 thus far?

Paul informs us that God's dispensation, or God's "economy," is not some thing we do, but is in faith, and the goal of Paul's charge is love out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and unfeigned faith. (I Tim 1.4-5)

This forum is filled with testimony about leadership at LSM which contradicts faith, violates a good conscience, and obviously points to mixed motives of the heart.

And Drake has the nerve to impugn James' epistle? Drake has the nerve to imply that his circle of associates fulfilled Paul's charge to Timothy?

Remember the words of Jesus, "Woe to you hypocrites."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

I haven’t concluded that James was in error in his epistle...just that ..it is lacking content concerning the New Testament economy and therefore its utility in building the Body of Christ is at best limited.

That is a very narrow view of the New Testament economy. You were the one that used the analogy of the NFL. A handbook to refs on how to officiate and the rules of the game are every bit as much a part of the game as a book from a great coach like Vince Lombardi on strategy, plays, and how to coach a team. Marketing the game is another aspect that cannot be ignored and yet totally different from these first two points. Finally, a book by a famous player on his training regimen is also part of the game.

Likewise I used the analogy of a canary in the coal mine. That canary is a critical component of the mining operation yet does not mine any coal. That is not an obscure analogy, every single building has to have fire alarm, smoke alarm and carbon monoxide alarm.

The New Testament economy clearly talks about false prophets. Jesus does in His ministry. Paul does in his ministry. Peter does in his ministry and James does in his ministry. The big complaint about James in Acts is that he was a false prophet, or involved in a cult, or was negatively associated with "Those of the concision". Surely a book on this is far better than the simple "you will know them by their fruit".

Originally Posted by Drake

But you think otherwise... that’s fine. Therefore, since visiting orphans and widows is important and indicates a proof point of James’ practical understanding of Gods NT economy then .,. How many orphans widows have you visited in 2018 thus far?

Thx
Drake

Approximately 40 of my students are homeless, and about 40 come from immigrant families, and a very large number are from single parent families. Thanks for asking. The church I meet with in Queens is very representative of the inner city population and therefore the numbers are quite similar. We have several outreaches. We no longer have a soup kitchen because we were sued and lost about 6 apartments next to the church. But we give out food every Sunday morning. Likewise we do have a number of opportunities to give when a member is about to lose their home or some other emergency.

When I first came into the church in Houston there was a brother there named Mike Collins, he was a mentor to me. I would often go to his house and virtually every night he would be fixing someone's car. Usually widows and poor members of the church. They couldn't pay him money so they would usually bring food and buy the part that he would replace. I would sit in the driveway and hand him tools.

[Drake]

Hi ZNP,

So you are living what you believe and teach concerning orphans and widows... and for that I tip my hat to you. I also observe you restrain your tongue in the forum.. also commendable. The Lord reward your faithfulness.

I look at it this way.... and what I observe by Brother Lee's kind and careful handling of JAmes' epistle I also think he thought in a similar way.... that is, if you only had the book of James then you would be missing the main and central revelation concerning God's purpose for the Church and the building of the Body of Christ. It may seem I am dismissive of James' contribution but my view is the broadest one..... also I dont consider James to have been leading an evil cult.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Hi ZNP,

So you are living what you believe and teach concerning orphans and widows... and for that I tip my hat to you. I also observe you restrain your tongue in the forum.. also commendable. The Lord reward your faithfulness.

I look at it this way.... and what I observe by Brother Lee's kind and careful handling of JAmes' epistle I also think he thought in a similar way.... that is, if you only had the book of James then you would be missing the main and central revelation concerning God's purpose for the Church and the building of the Body of Christ. It may seem I am dismissive of James' contribution but my view is the broadest one..... also I dont consider James to have been leading an evil cult.

Drake

I agree that the gospels and epistles of Paul are the main portion of the NT revelation.

I disagree with WL that James was keeping OT practices, teaching OT laws, or was unclear in his vision of the NT. I disagree that sending the letter to "the twelve tribes in the dispersion" indicated James was off, rather it indicated the Jews were having a tough time with the NT revelation and James had a burden for them.

I do agree in an ironic way that the purpose of James is to reveal those that don't have a clear view of the NT economy, but don't agree with the understanding I had in the LC that the person was James. I believe he is expanding on the basic principle the Lord gave that "you will know them by their works".

I also feel that James was specially prepared for this ministry, no one better to tell us not to be a respecter of man's person.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I agree that the gospels and epistles of Paul are the main portion of the NT revelation.

I disagree with WL that James was keeping OT practices, teaching OT laws, or was unclear in his vision of the NT. I disagree that sending the letter to "the twelve tribes in the dispersion" indicated James was off, rather it indicated the Jews were having a tough time with the NT revelation and James had a burden for them.

I do agree in an ironic way that the purpose of James is to reveal those that don't have a clear view of the NT economy, but don't agree with the understanding I had in the LC that the person was James. I believe he is expanding on the basic principle the Lord gave that "you will know them by their works".

I also feel that James was specially prepared for this ministry, no one better to tell us not to be a respecter of man's person.

Ok ZNP.

We have different viewpoints and to some degree based on this dialogue I moved a little closer to your viewpoint. Appreciate the sincere and civil dialogue.

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

I think some are disturbed that I use Hitler as an example of a cult. There are far too many similarities between what Hitler did in Germany and what cults do. He was clearly a cult figure, he was clearly given a special status similar to a "false Christ" or a "false prophet" or a "Minister of the Age". He focused on teenage children and this resulted in a cult like following with remarkable loyalty five or ten years later during the war.

So my point is not to compare the Local Church and Witness Lee to the Nazis and Hitler. Rather, my point is to compare the NT teaching on false prophets and false Christs to both of these groups to give two different but equally valid examples of how a false prophet can be identified and of the very real damage that they do.

Also, I think the example of Hitler demonstrates how this is a much bigger issue that can have very negative effects to everyone on earth, not just those who are hoodwinked. This is what will happen at the end of the age with the AntiChrist and False prophet, so in this respect this demonstrates how critical is this book of James to help us identify and respond to these false prophets.