"Lord Thou Saidst"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But so far I am unable to determine if your claim of "very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God" is correct since I do not have a copy of the book.

So where does one find a copy of Lord Thou Saidst? I've been unable to find it in the LSM online books. Another source . . . ?

That's funny. The book is not available?

Prolly the one LSM book I would want to hold onto, and they refuse to print it.

Like ZNP said, this book would be their undoing.

If nothing else, it shows us how WL changed RG, not for the better, but for the worse.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like ZNP said, this book would be their undoing.

If nothing else, it shows us how WL changed RG, not for the better, but for the worse.

"Prayer it is, when it is within the compass of God's word; and it is blasphemy, or at best vain babbling, when the petition is beside the book." John Bunyan, A Discourse Touching Prayer, p.265.

One could see why LSM would not like the saints to read that quote.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Prayer it is, when it is within the compass of God's word; and it is blasphemy, or at best vain babbling, when the petition is beside the book." John Bunyan, A Discourse Touching Prayer, p.265.

One could see why LSM would not like the saints to read that quote.

ZNP, did this book just vanish from sight, or was it actively banned?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, did this book just vanish from sight, or was it actively banned?

I have no idea.

[ZNPaaneah]

What we know for a fact is that Ray G, Benson P, Kerry R., and Ed M. are all extremely familiar with this book. We also know that they teach that the practice of pray reading is Biblical and was taught by the church fathers going all the way back to Jerome, Tertullian and Augustine. Yet they also know that the practice of pray reading that they teach is not at all the practice that the Bible or the Christian teachers teach. Nowhere in any of these quotes does it describe pray reading the ministry of a preacher. If anything there are quotes that portray that as vain babbling or even blasphemy.

We also know that this book was used to defend the practice of pray reading in the law courts as a practice that is fundamental to Christianity, yet as soon as that purpose was fulfilled it was discarded. LSM doesn't even list this book as one that can be ordered.

We don't know the reason why they felt it was useful to defend their practice as Biblical and a "recovered truth" and yet not useful to teach the practice to the saints. The only thing we do know is that when EM, KR, RG or BP teaches that Pray Reading of WL's books is scriptural and a recovered truth, that they know this is a lie.

"Authority for truth and practice among the believers must rest solely upon the Word of God with any review of church history serving as confirmation and encouragement." (Ray Graver, Lord Thou Saidst..., LSM, 1981, p.35)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We don't know the reason why they felt it was useful to defend their practice as Biblical and a "recovered truth" and yet not useful to teach the practice to the saints. The only thing we do know is that when EM, KR, RG or BP teaches that Pray Reading of WL's books is scriptural and a recovered truth, that they know this is a lie.

This is classic LSM equivocation to deceive the faithful. These wordsmiths at LSM will scour 2 millennia of Christian writings to prove that praying the word of God has been practice by noted men of God for like ... forever.

Then they teach their people to pray-read Lee's books, as if this is the same thing, and call it part of our "recovered" heritage. So deceptive.

Even more troubling is knowing this is a blatant lie, and yet continuing to teach it and practice it. To lie in this way is to walk in the darkness, deceiving themselves, making Him a liar, and the truth is not in them. (I John 1.5-10)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is classic LSM equivocation to deceive the faithful. These wordsmiths at LSM will scour 2 millennia of Christian writings to prove that praying the word of God has been practice by noted men of God for like ... forever.

Then they teach their people to pray-read Lee's books, as if this is the same thing, and call it part of our "recovered" heritage. So deceptive.

Even more troubling is knowing this is a blatant lie, and yet continuing to teach it and practice it. To lie in this way is to walk in the darkness, deceiving themselves, making Him a liar, and the truth is not in them. (I John 1.5-10)

"As we examine the lives and writings of these faithful ones, it is evident that their usefulness, their vitality, and their insight issued directly from personal, consecrated times of handling God's Word by prayer. They had discovered the intimate and vital relationship between God's word and prayer." (Ray Graver, Lord Thou saidst..., LSM, 1981, p.11)

A time of handling God's word with prayer is a consecrated time. The same is true of a time of meeting between God and His people around Jesus Christ. To profane those times by substituting WL's words for God's words is why John Bunyan called it blasphemy.

6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Causing someone to stumble is not to cause them to sin, but to cause them to stop following the Lord, to trip them up. Jesus is the incarnated word of God. He has given us His body and blood to eat. Substituting WL's words for the word of God, that is to trip them up in their following of the Lord.

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!

I find it interesting that the Lord realizes the world would be the "occasions of stumbling". This perversion is simply to force people to buy the books and ministry they were selling.

[Raptor]

Chicago Bibles & Books

http://www.biblesandbooksonline.com/...d-thou-saidst/