Indwelling Christ in our Human Spirit - who emphasizes this now besides LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

Mary E McDonough penned a treatise that Is so similar to Lee’s teachings on this topic that it appears he based a lot of his teachings on it: https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Plan-Red.../dp/0736307184

Major Ian Thomas also used the three circle tripartite man illustration, but his ministry was quite different than Lee’s. Here is a Sermon index http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/m...cat.php?cid=17
He came to my community church in 2005, and I asked him if he knew of Lee. He did and said “he was a sheep stealer” as a congregation he was ministering to in Colorado had been attracted away to follow him.

But, while I hear much about Christ in me or you in community church circles, there is not much on The Spirit in our spirit as Lee so over-emphasized.

I’ll be interested if contemporary teachers not influenced my Nee or Lee teach on this topic.

I heard a radio message yesterday by Charles Stanley that hit on a lot of indwelling points. His main thrust was the Comforter was given to us, and at a couple points he said the HS resided in us. Then he mentioned that Christ was in us. It was one of the better things I'd heard on media for some time!

I've also read some good things about the indwelling in Piper books. (also Murray, Tozer, Hannah W. Smith, Sparks, et. al., but these are not alive)

So there is mention of the indwelling out there by some current mainstream ones, and not just obscure teachers. I mean this is a main tenet of the New Covenant, is it not?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I heard a radio message yesterday by Charles Stanley that hit on a lot of indwelling points. His main thrust was the Comforter was given to us, and at a couple points he said the HS resided in us. Then he mentioned that Christ was in us. It was one of the better things I'd heard on media for some time!

I've also read some good things about the indwelling in Piper books. (also Murray, Tozer, Hannah W. Smith, Sparks, et. al., but these are not alive)

So there is mention of the indwelling out there by some current mainstream ones, and not just obscure teachers. I mean this is a main tenet of the New Covenant, is it not?

The notion of the indwelling of the HS has been posited, debated, and questioned, going back to at least the apostolic fathers ... and also condemned.

An early proponent of it, Montanus (2nd century CE), was condemned as a heretic because he and his two two female colleagues, Priscilla and Maximilla, who claimed the Paraclete to be indwelling and working thru them more than thru Montanus, in what was considered back then to be The New Prophecy.

The moral of my little screed here, I guess is, Montanus claimed the Paraclete spoke through him. But it looked to the orthodoxy as something tantamount to witchcraft, or demon possession, so I guess we can get carried away with the HS, to the point of being unpredictable ; a wild card to the orthodoxy, perhaps a loose cannon, or canon ... haha ... at any rate, the HS made troublesome to the order of that that had developed during the proto-orthodox, the precursor to the church in Rome becoming the state religion.

But then again, according the gospel we call John, Jesus said the HS is like the wind. We can hear it, but can't tell from where it comes, and to where it goes ... so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So Montanus might have been right, but it would have removed the authority of what became institutional Christianity.

The Mother Church was against it. The charismatic movement within her these days is a hard pill for them to swallow.

Same for the local church. Lee killed the movement of the holy Spirit many times. Just try and follow the Holy Spirit in the local church, and see where that gets you.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Same for the local church. Lee killed the movement of the holy Spirit many times. Just try and follow the Holy Spirit in the local church, and see where that gets you.

You mean I couldn't just stand up and testify of a fresh experience of the Lord!? Yeah, yer probably right!

I do distinctly remember WL, as we were going through the Romans training and chapter eight thereof, asking Who of the Triune God was in us. Not easy to figure out from the following . . .

Romans 8: 9-11: "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

[Raptor]

Here Billy Graham hammers the point that the Holy Spirit is in us and that the christian life is about Him living through us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03T2uLXio28

In this message he speaks about three things: 1) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, 2) without faith I cannot please Him, 3) without "Me" you can do nothing. On this 3rd segment, starting at minute 25, he talks about abiding in Christ, here are some excerpts:

"After you come to Jesus Christ as your Savior, you know what happens, the Holy Spirit comes to live in your heart. The moment you receive Christ, the moment you put your whole weight on Christ, the Spirit of God comes to live within you and He lives through you and in you and He lives the christian life through you.

There are many of you here tonight, you look like a christian, you act like a christian in many ways, but deep inside there is no abiding in Christ. There is no life, there is no sap, the fruit isn't there. ...Are you abiding in Christ? Jesus withdrew Himself into solitary places to meet God, and we must do the same thing. We must keep contact with Him everyday, it must be constant and deliberate, never a day when we do not sense His presence. And without this abiding you cannot do anything that will be spiritually pleasing to God.

Without "Me" you can´t bear supernatural fruit but with Him I can love that fellow over there that normally I wouldn't love. With Him, I can be gentle when normally I might want to hit him in the face. With Him in my life, living through me, I can forgive the wrongs that have been done and the things that were said. With Him the life can be lived, because you see, nowhere in the New Testament does it tell me, Billy Graham, to live a christian life. It tells me that the old Bill must die and Christ must live through me and in me. He does the living through me if I´m daily moment-by-moment abiding in Him. It's His sap that gives me the strength and the life, the spiritual life that I must have. By their fruits you shall know them. "

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Now days I seldom hear anyone in other Christian groups talk much about the importance of "Christ is you, the hope of glory." (Col 1:27) But if this not the New Covenant, then what is? And, of course, many might acknowledge that Christ is in the believer, but then approach the whole New Covenant in a largely outward, Old Covenant way of buckle-down performance, which is simply legalism.

Let me ask you, Sons to Glory! - Does your group have guest speakers, teachers from other other churches in your area or other unaffiliated people come and speak at your fellowship? The reason I ask is that it seems like you guys are a little isolated, and even a bit insulated, from the other Christian groups and influences in general, and from non Local Church sources specifically. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, knowing that the group is a direct spin off of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

I guess I'm struggling a little with your attitude towards "other Christian groups". You say that you seldom hear anyone talk much about the importance of "Christ in you, the hope of glory". This seems a rather puzzling thing to say. This term "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is a direct quote from the apostle Paul in Colossians 1:27. So it's in the Bible. So any Christian teacher who is doing either a topical study or sequential study will be covering this wonderful and important aspect of the indwelling Christ, and depending upon the audience, place it in its proper context and give it the proper emphasis. The teacher may or may not use the same terminology as, or put such a great emphasis on a certain aspect as was done by Witness Lee, but so what? The New Testament contains 27 books, 260 chapters, containing about 138,000 words. God Word is God's Word. Any interpretations, including what is or is not emphasized, is subject to the frailty and fallibility of the teacher - even if they are claiming that their personal interpretations are "recovered truth". The days of the scripture writing apostles are over. We do not have the apostles John, Peter or Paul to expand and expound upon what has been written. And just as important, in my view, we do not have these men around to tell us what should or should not be emphasized.

So here's the main question: Are there Christian groups or speakers out there who emphasize the indwelling of Christ in our spirit - and that the Christian life is impossible to live apart from Him living in and through us?

In light of what I have written above, I think that your ostensibly rhetorical question is actually begging the question. It is circular, it assumes something that you could not possible know - to wit - that you know what is taught and emphasized by anything but a small fraction of Christian teachers, ministers and scholars. Witness Lee was constantly making this crucial error. Eventually, this kind of thinking lead Lee to make such absurd and asinine statements as "Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is Christless". May God have mercy.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Let me ask you, Sons to Glory! - Does your group have guest speakers, teachers from other other churches in your area or other unaffiliated people come and speak at your fellowship? The reason I ask is that it seems like you guys are a little isolated, and even a bit insulated, from the other Christian groups and influences in general, and from non Local Church sources specifically. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, knowing that the group is a direct spin off of the Local Church of Witness Lee.

I guess I'm struggling a little with your attitude towards "other Christian groups". You say that you seldom hear anyone talk much about the importance of "Christ in you, the hope of glory". This seems a rather puzzling thing to say. This term "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is a direct quote from the apostle Paul in Colossians 1:27. So it's in the Bible. So any Christian teacher who is doing either a topical study or sequential study will be covering this wonderful and important aspect of the indwelling Christ, and depending upon the audience, place it in its proper context and give it the proper emphasis. The teacher may or may not use the same terminology as, or put such a great emphasis on a certain aspect as was done by Witness Lee, but so what? The New Testament contains 27 books, 260 chapters, containing about 138,000 words. God Word is God's Word. Any interpretations, including what is or is not emphasized, is subject to the frailty and fallibility of the teacher - even if they are claiming that their personal interpretations are "recovered truth". The days of the scripture writing apostles are over. We do not have the apostles John, Peter or Paul to expand and expound upon what has been written. And just as important, in my view, we do not have these men around to tell us what should or should not be emphasized.


In light of what I have written above, I think that your ostensibly rhetorical question is actually begging the question. It is circular, it assumes something that you could not possible know - to wit - that you know what is taught and emphasized by anything but a small fraction of Christian teachers, ministers and scholars. Witness Lee was constantly making this crucial error. Eventually, this kind of thinking lead Lee to make such absurd and asinine statements as "Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is Christless". May God have mercy.
-

Yes, we do have others come in to speak a few times a year. And there is a fair amount of "cross pollination" with other Christian groups by various ones. There are a number of other groups nearby, that some here go to weekly, and some from other groups come here weekly. One of the leading ones here was asked about three years ago to come teach at another group, which he has been doing each Tuesday since. There are no "fences" in anyone's mind, from any other believers. (we see this as a clear error of the LC)

And I've shared on this forum numerous times that I travel around and meet with various groups, denominations, etc., as the opportunity arises. So there's this, and also what I hear on the radio and TV. It's just that so much of what I hear is sort of like trying to follow the New Testament in an old covenant way of performance and legalism, which is something that is required of the self to do - not through daily abiding in the indwelling Christ. This was really emphasized well with what Raptor just posted of Billy Graham's speaking. That was so good!

So yes, while the indwelling of Christ is certainly a main theme in the New Testament, that doesn't mean we are in the reality of that practice, does it? Shoot, my old man still thinks it can live the Christian life apart from Christ - that is, having a form thereof, but denying the abiding in Him. I need to look away unto Jesus every day, be nourished by Him and let His life live through me (and the cross is applied to my old life thereby).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Here Billy Graham hammers the point that the Holy Spirit is in us and that the christian life is about Him living through us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03T2uLXio28

In this message he speaks about three things: 1) without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, 2) without faith I cannot please Him, 3) without "Me" you can do nothing. On this 3rd segment, starting at minute 25, he talks about abiding in Christ, here are some excerpts:

"After you come to Jesus Christ as your Savior, you know what happens, the Holy Spirit comes to live in your heart. The moment you receive Christ, the moment you put your whole weight on Christ, the Spirit of God comes to live within you and He lives through you and in you and He lives the christian life through you.

There are many of you here tonight, you look like a christian, you act like a christian in many ways, but deep inside there is no abiding in Christ. There is no life, there is no sap, the fruit isn't there. ...Are you abiding in Christ? Jesus withdrew Himself into solitary places to meet God, and we must do the same thing. We must keep contact with Him everyday, it must be constant and deliberate, never a day when we do not sense His presence. And without this abiding you cannot do anything that will be spiritually pleasing to God.

Without "Me" you can´t bear supernatural fruit but with Him I can love that fellow over there that normally I wouldn't love. With Him, I can be gentle when normally I might want to hit him in the face. With Him in my life, living through me, I can forgive the wrongs that have been done and the things that were said. With Him the life can be lived, because you see, nowhere in the New Testament does it tell me, Billy Graham, to live a christian life. It tells me that the old Bill must die and Christ must live through me and in me. He does the living through me if I´m daily moment-by-moment abiding in Him. It's His sap that gives me the strength and the life, the spiritual life that I must have. By their fruits you shall know them. "

That was simply awesome!! Now that's what I'm talking about!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

That was simply awesome!! Now that's what I'm talking about!

YES! It was very refreshing. I had not listened to BG all my christian life until now that I started dialysis and eliminating the kool-aid. He´s got several good messages, so much power, sober mind, simplicity, release of the Spirit and word....he was a gift!

[byHismercy]

https://youtu.be/-lpAeHMoQCI

This pastor of my favorite ministry has something to say about that. This would be my assembly if it weren't a few hundred miles away. The reality of Christ in us is not an exclusive belief or knowledge, praise God!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Here Billy Graham hammers the point that the Holy Spirit is in us and that the christian life is about Him living through us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03T2uLXio28

Billy Graham helped lead me to the Lord. What an awesome preaching gift he had!

If anyone was a minister of the age..... But can you even imagine him making such a claim? 'Nuff said.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Billy Graham helped lead me to the Lord. What an awesome preaching gift he had!

If anyone was a minister of the age..... But can you even imagine him making such a claim? 'Nuff said.

Billy Graham's vision of Christ and the church is an excellent pattern for us all.

[Sons to Glory!]

It's interesting that I find myself somewhere between the LC and so-called mainstream Christianity on many things. The LC rails against other Christians and thereby becomes divisive. Yes, Christianity is short on many things, and I'm often surprised by how sideways Christians get certain things that are so clear and even elementary. But the Lord has to supply the vision and clarity to us all, and attacking others about these things just divides and makes others defensive and closed-off. For instance, T. Austin Sparks is not shy about pointing Christian shortcomings out, however I never get the sense that he's the least bit divisive about it - rather he's just wanting to point out the reality, for the building up of the body in love.

To me, the biggest short-coming in Christianity is what Paul might ask is, "Beginning in the new birth of the Spirit, why do you think you should continue in the flesh?" That is, going back to doing things in an outward way, and not relying on the indwelling Christ (doing the New Covenant in the way of the old covenant).

So I can't cotton to the "way of the LCs" because of many obvious factors, but the LC was basically right about certain short-comings of Christianity. (however as WL would say, "Dead right.")