Pray-Reading is Scriptural

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Opening Post by Raptor

If you think the Local Churches teaching and practice about pray-reading is wrong, find the main points in their publications about pray-reading and point out the mistakes. Talk about how in your experience their practice of pray-reading is wrong. But don´t throw out scriptural and healthy pray-reading. The Recovery does not have the copyright, monopoly or ownership over pray-reading.

Actually there are not many widely disseminated Living Stream publications covering the practice of corporate pray-reading, so it's hard to find any published mistakes to point to. My problem is with pray-reading as it is practiced in the Local Church. It is not scriptural, and it is not healthy. Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another is not found in the Bible. My experience of 40+ years (in and out of the Local Church) is that the corporate practice of pray-reading - as it is practiced in the Local Church - does not lead to the individual believers knowing the Lord and his Word, or true worship to God, which should be the goal of any corporate church practice.

There is a very good reason why many, if not most, Christians who visit the Local Church are turned off when they encounter corporate pray-reading - and it's not because they are moo-cows who are not used to the heavenly music - it's because it doesn't match what they have read in the Word, or what they have experienced in corporate gatherings and worshiping with legitimate, orthodox Christian churches and ministries.

Many of the references given by Raptor and others do exemplify "scriptural and healthy" pray-reading, but none of them are what I would consider even faintly close to what is practiced in the Local Church. I was in Orange County California for many years during the LC heyday of the 1970s. I "set my clock for 6 O'Clock" to be "right on time for the morning watch!" I was with hospitality from all over the country and the world - with hundreds of saints - and the practice of pray-reading was virtually uniform as I recall. I have been to a number of Local Church meetings and conference meetings in the last few years - still the same practice. Still not scriptural. Still not healthy.

I apologize to my valued and esteemed brother Raptor. I know it seems like I'm just trying to be contrary, but actually I'm trying to speak the truth in love as I know it. It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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[awareness]

Originally Posted by Untohim

There is a very good reason why many, if not most, Christians who visit the Local Church are turned off when they encounter corporate pray-reading -

My wife worked as a teller at a bank. She made friends with the president's wife, invited her to a meeting, and she went crazy for the local church.

So she talked her husband and another bank officer into going to a meeting. They were behind me in the meeting, and when her husband saw the meeting, pray-reading, calling, and all, I heard him tell his buddy : "These people are a half bubble off level."

And he knew nothing of the Bible.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I apologize to my valued and esteemed brother Raptor. I know it seems like I'm just trying to be contrary, but actually I'm trying to speak the truth in love as I know it. It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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Well, speaking for myself, I made no such claim. That is, "pray-reading as it has been practiced in the LC is scriptural and healthy." No, while I think an argument for scriptural support can be made, I too feel that in many cases it has fallen into a rote practice in the LC. My testimony about pray-reading is more a personal one - I often do it on my own, but it doesn't fall into any set routine as such. It is just a way to speak the word to myself and the Lord, and through it praise & thank Him, ask questions, pray for things & others, and otherwise get His word into me.

BTW: I don't remember ever doing it corporately here in Scottsdale . . . but there's also nothing against it here that I know of (just as if someone wanted to speak in tongues or do foot-washing). I did witness one brother who tried to introduce it a couple times at a smaller gathering he was running, but it didn't catch on very well.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

No, while I think an argument for scriptural support can be made, I too feel that in many cases it has fallen into a rote practice in the LC.

An argument for scriptural support can be made? Scriptural support for what? For the kind of pray-reading that Raptor has referenced in his posts, and the Bonhoeffer one your just referenced? Of course there is scriptural support for these, because these are coming (for the most part) from orthodox, evangelical Christians. So that's a given. My point would be that what has been practiced in the Local Church has always been a rote practice. And this is why I brought up the point about how other Christians react to the pray-reading in the Local Church. Most Christians instinctively see it has an unscriptural and unhealthy practice.

Thanks for your clarification about Scottsdale.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

An argument for scriptural support can be made? Scriptural support for what? For the kind of pray-reading that Raptor has referenced in his posts, and the Bonhoeffer one your just referenced? Of course there is scriptural support for these, because these are coming (for the most part) from orthodox, evangelical Christians. So that's a given. My point would be that what has been practiced in the Local Church has always been a rote practice. And this is why I brought up the point about how other Christians react to the pray-reading in the Local Church. Most Christians instinctively see it has an unscriptural and unhealthy practice.

Thanks for your clarification about Scottsdale.
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We're in agreement . . . it's the same general thing we've had to clarify with each other on this forum over and over. That is, something gets taken too far in the LC, and we then have to make repeated attempts to clarify that, what we're talking about, is not the extreme form of it the LC practices (i.e., baby and dirty bath water). To me, using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. Saying "Oh Lord!" "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" before and/or after every statement is not of the Spirit and is a dead practice devoid of Christ.

[awareness]

Anybody can pray-read or not ... with others or not ... in meetings or not.

If you want to understand scripture, personally I think the time would be better spent reading scholarly studies of the scriptures. But that's me.

The tragic fallacy is, perhaps, that it is an effort to connect with God. The tragedy is that it implies a disconnect.

Since it's impossible to disconnect from God, pray-reading is a superfluous activity.

But to each his or her own.

[Sons to Glory!]

I have read and studied scripture for some time, but none of it compares with one flash of light from the Lord! I've had this a number of times - thought I really knew the scripture, but truly didn't get it until the light came. So I must disagree with all the studying being the key. Light from Him is the key. But in any case, whether one pray-reads or studies, it is His light that makes all the difference!

Okay, we are connected with Christ. Put in Him by God. Seated with Him in the heavenlies. So nothing we do makes any difference? What then do we make of the numerous exhortations to "walk in spirit"? Is there nothing we do that makes any difference? Why is there an accounting for "things done in the body"? (2 Cor 5:10) Why are we exhorted to build with the right materials, namely gold, silver and precious stone?

Again, doing anything in a rote way has no profit. But things we do according to the Spirit will have profit (like pray-reading that really reaches out to touch Him in spirit).

[awareness]

Stay connected brother. There's no reason not to. God is omnipresent.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

To me, using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. Saying "Oh Lord!" "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" before and/or after every statement is not of the Spirit and is a dead practice devoid of Christ.

I am in complete agreement with you (and raptor) because I understand you guys completely. I was long gone when the LC/LSM began 'pray reading' the outlines or morning revival and such nonsense.

It's been a work in progress learning to tweek the pray reading I learned in the LC back in 1975 when we used the bible..but as STG wrote Using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. It is how we receive true revelation and understanding from God the Holy Spirit living and operating in our spirit. Praise the Holy Name of Jesus.

[Bubbles!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We're in agreement . . . it's the same general thing we've had to clarify with each other on this forum over and over. That is, something gets taken too far in the LC, and we then have to make repeated attempts to clarify that, what we're talking about, is not the extreme form of it the LC practices (i.e., baby and dirty bath water). To me, using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. Saying "Oh Lord!" "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" before and/or after every statement is not of the Spirit and is a dead practice devoid of Christ.

Hey, didn't Jesus Himself pray-read that way? Didn't He even pump His fist with every word? I think that he even carried an ''elder bag!''

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

. . Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another . . . .

This is the part that baffled me. We are supposedly going to get the best from the Word by chopping it into disjointed words, losing the entirety of what the passage says in the process. This takes contextomy to an entirely new level.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
. . Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another . . . .

Originally Posted by OBW

This is the part that baffled me. We are supposedly going to get the best from the Word by chopping it into disjointed words, losing the entirety of what the passage says in the process. This takes contextomy to an entirely new level.

I do not remember the "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another when I was learning to pray read. I do remember that after some time in prayer meetings it was a LOT of ' O LORD' this and 'AMEN' that and 'HALLELUIAH' this and that.. and much of the prayer was about 'Christ and the church'...

No worship... no praise.. no thanksgiving..except when we were singing from the hymnal in particular during the Lord's supper.

[countmeworthy]

I think Ephesians 6 makes a compelling statement of proof that praying the Word aka 'pray reading' is scriptural.

Here goes:
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

11 Put on the full armor of God......
in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and

the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit,


So as an example of how I was taught to pray read, it went something like this:
saint # 1 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

saint #2 "LORD. We put on the Full Armor of God.
saint #3 Yes Lord. We put on the Full Armor of God.. that we may be able to stand firm.
saint #4 Yes! We STAND FIRM. OH!! LORD! WE put on the Full Armor of God that we may be able to STAND FIRM against the schemes of the devil.

And yes.. the saints would resound 'AMEN' after every phrase. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't pray read like that anymore and neither do I 'pray read' with people either. just my experience.

[Sons to Glory!]

And I don't see anything wrong with that either. Also: "Lord, help me/us put on Your full armor!" is something I would pray now.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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Nope, second time you are wrong about that. First time I wrote about how pray-reading is scriptural, and you said something similar, which I refuted. This time I wrote about my experience and you are trying to say the same. I have not talked about the practice of pray-reading as a whole in the Local Church. You keep making stuff up and putting words in my mouth or misreading my posts. Seems like you are heavily biased about this issue and can´t read what I have written. To summarize, I wrote

1. pray-reading is scriptural
2. my experience of corporate pray-reading in the LC has been good.

Why don´t you start a thread like I suggested already about how the practice of pray-reading as done in the LC is unscriptural and unhealthy.That is what you are talking about, not me.