Shepherding Words "From The Co-Workers In The Lord's Recovery"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The EL 'article' is a perfunctory dismissal in a few paragraphs. "Nothing to see here, move along." The last thing they actually want to do is examine the issue in any depth. Living Stream Ministry and Mainland PRC - isn't that a tale to tell?

At this point it has become quite apparent that Lee/LSM were not exporting the truth of the scriptures to Mainlamd China, but Lee-worship, Lee-idolatry. And that's what Eastern Lightning got. Of course, LSM refuses to acknowledge this, and had long boasted of millions of fruit in China from their ministry. Now, however, LSM to their shame disowns these ones. Shame on them. It's like disowning a child for not bringing you glory.

Setting aside all of his similarities to WL, Titus Chu was far more Biblically orthodox than both WL and his Blendeds. He had a genuine burden for his Chinese homeland. Who gave WL the authority to prevent him from going there? By whose authority could the Blendeds publicly shame TC in Whistler for secretly visiting China? God will judge that kangaroo court sham.

Is not the need in China far greater than the available workers? Should TC then obey God or man? Why hasn't LSM sent their workers to China to help these ones?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And I remember reading that one of the slogans when the LSM entered China was, "The age of the word is over, it is the age of the spirit". Now, they will deny that, or say it was a rogue operative, but that's what was happening. Yet they deny any responsibility whatever. I doubt that. They managed the message carefully, from what I remember. People were not supposed to deviate from the script. Dong Yu Lan and Titus Chu followed Lee very closely, and their methodology was taken right from the LSM playbook.

As did, it seems, most of the Krazy Kults that LSM's efforts led to. One article reviewing 12 mainland cults, tied 8 of the 12 back to Witness Lee and LSM actions. He himself said of one, "They worship me as a god." This was the Lord Changshou Shouters. And of course he disapproved. But he could not [would not] see how his efforts had brought such catastrophes. He was Deputy God, after all. He simply could not err.

Awhile back, someone on the forum posted a WL quote where WL referred to LC members in China as 'Shouters'. The DCP has an article where they state that the local churches "have no connection or linkage, formally or informally" to the EL or Shouters:
https://contendingforthefaith.org/en...oups-in-china/

So obviously DCP is not telling the truth to begin with. That's what makes it all so suspect. The LC may very well be indirectly related to the EL at a distance. That isn't so much the issue. The issue is that the linkage exists in the first place. This is where shepherdingwords.com presents a disingenuous argument.

They say other groups have spawned aberrant groups as well. That's true. But what other groups haven't done is spawn 8 different cults. It's notable that WL even saw and recognized the issue during his lifetime. Of course, he didn't take any responsibility for it, but that type of trend has existed for a long time. Even looking at the LC in the U.S. - is it really all that much different? Everything they do seems to stir up controversy. Each time a LC member comes forward to speak out, the stories are the same - high pressure, manipulation, control, fear tactics, etc. Thus, it doesn't come as any surprise what the LC is capable of producing.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At this point it has become quite apparent that Lee/LSM were not exporting the truth of the scriptures to Mainlamd China, but Lee-worship, Lee-idolatry. And that's what Eastern Lightning got. Of course, LSM refuses to acknowledge this, and had long boasted of millions of fruit in China from their ministry. Now, however, LSM to their shame disowns these ones. Shame on them. It's like disowning a child for not bringing you glory.

I am reminded of the type of statements that FTTT trainers were reported to have made:
1) “There is no need to pray about what to do; just follow the ministry.”
2) We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told.”
3) “Follow Witness Lee blindly. Even if he’s wrong, he’s right.”
4) “If you leave the training, you’ll miss the kingdom.”
5) Our burden is to pick up Brother Lee’s teaching and way to make us all Witness Lees, like a Witness Lee duplication center.”
6) “To be one with the ministry is to be one with Brother Lee, the office, and Philip Lee.”
7) Since Christianity is in ruins, the Lord raised up the recovery; since the recovery is in ruins, the Lord raised up the FTTT.

Obviously, such statements are completely absurd, but the real issue is that the platform existed for such things to be spoken and accepted without question. The EL also makes similar types of statements, which sheperdingwords.com wastes no time in pointing out. But they make no mention of how the LC has it's own history doing the exact same thing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I am reminded of the type of statements that FTTT trainers were reported to have made:
1) “There is no need to pray about what to do; just follow the ministry.”
2) We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told.”
3) “Follow Witness Lee blindly. Even if he’s wrong, he’s right.”
4) “If you leave the training, you’ll miss the kingdom.”
5) Our burden is to pick up Brother Lee’s teaching and way to make us all Witness Lees, like a Witness Lee duplication center.”
6) “To be one with the ministry is to be one with Brother Lee, the office, and Philip Lee.”
7) Since Christianity is in ruins, the Lord raised up the recovery; since the recovery is in ruins, the Lord raised up the FTTT.

Obviously, such statements are completely absurd, but the real issue is that the platform existed for such things to be spoken and accepted without question. The EL also makes similar types of statements, which sheperdingwords.com wastes no time in pointing out. But they make no mention of how the LC has it's own history doing the exact same thing.

Suppose some Church Fathers like Justin Martyr and John Chystostom wrote antisemitic things. Suppose Martin Luther picked up on these things, and amplified them. Suppose some of these statements then resurfaced, amplified more, during the Third Reich. How can one then say that there's absolutely no connection? One must at least pause and consider! Don't just wave it away, wishing it were not so. Because it may in fact be so, at least to some degree.

Apologists for Lee have come on this forum, saying that mentioning LSM together with the 'Shouter' off-shoots may then cause persecution of Christians in the PRC. Yet they tell also us that Lee's inflammatory sloganeering, with which we're all too familiar, spread thru that land for years, had nothing whatever to do with the multiple nuttinesses that followed hard upon? What kind of fever-dream are they living in?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is nearly unimaginable in its simplicity and raw purity, and unfathomable in its power. Yet it still requires a few preconditions to work. Jesus came out of the desert preaching, and the first thing he spoke echoed John the Baptist: "Repent". And it's the same word he spoke to the seven churches in Asia: "Repent".

Yet the Blendeds refuse to repent, but instead hide behind their screeds. This movement won't sweep over the earth, as their hymns once claimed, without a fundamental change of heart. It will go nowhere.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Apologists for Lee have come on this forum, saying that mentioning LSM together with the 'Shouter' off-shoots may then cause persecution of Christians in the PRC. Yet they tell us that Lee's inflammatory sloganeering, with which we're all familiar, spread thru that land for years, had nothing whatever to do with the multiple nuttinesses that followed hard upon? What kind of fever-dream are they living in?

The LC is full of extremities and they fail to really recognize it or acknowledge the end effect. They waste no time distancing themselves from the Shouters and EL, yet why aren't they willing to do the same in regards to the statements made by FTTT trainers?

Maybe it's just me, but those EL statements have a familiar ring to them. Their methodologies sound all too familiar.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC is full of extremities and they fail to really recognize it or acknowledge the end effect. They waste no time distancing themselves from the Shouters and EL, yet why aren't they willing to do the same in regards to the statements made by FTTT trainers?

Maybe it's just me, but those EL statements have a familiar ring to them. Their methodologies sound all too familiar.

Below is a summary of LC campus recruiting, compared with EL tactics. Especially the first point stands out. "We are just Christians" - both groups have further motives, but initially hide it to make the personal connection. Once the connection's made the maneuvering begins, with the cutting of old connections, and then the control becomes more overt.

Jo Casteel's testimony affirms this methodology is now practiced. The new mark is deliberately shielded from ministry materials. They use a KJV, sing "good old Protestant hymns", and slowly build bridges. Then they cut off the person's ties to the outside with the incessant negativity and judgment. Simultaneously the ministry indoctrination begins, the 'drip-feed' as Curious called it.

Originally Posted by Peter Eagan

.Don't let them know our group, at first. We are just Christians... Christians on campus.

.Make friends with them. Pay attention to them. Listen. Connect.

.Get them to come to our conferences and trainings. Isolate them in an intense setting where they are vulnerable and open.

.Get them to see that Shouters alone have the way and the teaching. Everything else is wrong. Family and friends are the worst! Distractions from hell!

.Get them to be recruiters right away. Use them to reach other recruits. That will solidify their position in the group.

.Always pressure them for more. More time, more commitment. Constant pressure.

All this stuff looked very similar to me, to the EL recruiting handbook that I saw..

We don't know ALL the connections with the LC/LSM and the various decidedly non-Christian groups that followed their proselytizing the mainland. China's unfortunately a closed society, and those who talk are punished. But we shouldn't just blithely wave it away as DCP does, and say there are NO connections whatever!

And they refuse to acknowledge that because it is Chinese, this movement resists open, critical examination. The Maximum Leader can't be allowed to publicly lose face! Today in China, if one publicly criticizes Mao, they can lose their job. Initially, in Elden Hall, the Jesus Freaks didn't realise what they'd gotten into. But one sees StG's testimony on the Berkeley 'purge', or reads of The New Way, the Young Galileans, Daystar and Timothy Lee, then 'Philip Lee is the Office', at some point it becomes clear.

All these trends go back into pre-USA history, to Taiwan and the Philippines in the 1950s, and the Mainland before that. Then, what recent information does come out of PRC, about Three Grades of Servants, Eastern Lightning, the Lord Changshou Shouters etc makes more sense. Yes there's a connection; the only question is in the variety of details. Like with Titus Chu and Dong Yu Lan, who went 'rogue' but still use many of the same methods because they're so effective. But the connection is there.

Another noteworthy phenomenon is that, among the eight homegrown cults, aside from the Shouters, there are two additional cults that derive from the Shouters: the Lord God Sect and the Anointed King. In addition the All Sphere Church (aka the Criers or Born Again Criers), the Disciple Society, and Three Grades of Servants all certainly have a connection with the Shouters.

If this is true, six of the eight homegrown cults belong to or are associated with the Shouters, which accounts for more than half of those cults. Moreover, there are several cults that were not included among the 14 cults but are viewed as heretical sects. The Changshou Sect, the Mainland China Administrative Deacon Station, and the Eastern Lightning were all originally born out of the Shouters.

The DCP says there's no connection between LSM and the Shouters, but I personally heard WL claim Shouters for LSM and number them in the millions. So we are to assume that all those Shouters vanished, and another Shouters group also numbering in the millions appeared ten years later (2005), which then gave rise to the many cults? But there is no connection to the Shouters of the 1990s? Do you really expect people to receive this without verification?

https://www.chinasource.org/resource...anity-in-china