How do you experience the Cross?

[Sons to Glory!]

What do y-all think of this statement:

The Christian life is impossible without the life of Christ within us.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

What do y-all think of this statement:

The Christian life is impossible without the life of Christ within us.

The answer is simple. It is definitially impossible.

The problem is that there are so many trying to define what it means to have the life of Christ within us. Some try to say that you need to have had your morning watch to have the life of Christ within you (or within you sufficiently) to actually live the Christian life. Or be "calling on the Lord" somewhat regularly. Or thinking spiritual thoughts.

But Peter said we had all we needed for life and Godliness. And though never as directly stated, Paul did also when he declared various aspects of our union with Christ as facts, not things needed to be undertaken or worked-up.

Yet, while I understand the meaning of the statement you quoted when its source is presumed to be from a leader of the LC, it is a true statement. Those who are not believers cannot be said to have the life of Christ within them. And no matter how much they may seem to live a life that is like that of a Christian, they can never be said to live the Christian life.

So, as a statement without context, it is entirely true. But when understood in the way it was intended, it is nothing short of slander on the status of non-LC Christians.

[UntoHim]

The Christian life is impossible without the life of Christ within us.

Sons to Glory!,
I guess my question would be "what do you mean by 'The Christian life'?" If you mean to subjectively experience the life of God and all its various aspects, such as love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, peace, etc in our inner man, then I would agree that the Christian life is impossible without the life of Christ within us. Yet the Christian life also has an objective, observable and assessable aspect as well. As a matter of fact, according to the teachings of the Lord Jesus, and those of the scripture writing apostles, the real test of whether or not we actually have the life of Christ within us is discernible by the words that come out of our mouth, and even more by our actions. When taken to extreme, the notion that Christian life is merely "the life of Christ within us" leads to the imbibing such absurd teachings as "we don't care for right or wrong, we only care for life!". To be sure, the history of the Local Church of Witness Lee has shown us the damage that ensues when people imbibe such teachings.

A man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
Mark 10:17-22

To put some meat on the bones of what I'm trying to say here, I have just posted the story of the rich young man who asked the Lord Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Firstly, I would note that the Lord did not answer "eat my flesh and drink my blood", or even "believe in Me". In fact he reiterated a number of the the 10 Commandments - the law. The young man was quick to proclaim "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" The Lord Jesus did not tell this man "good job, you have done all the outward things, now you have to eat my flesh and drink my blood and believe in Me". No, the Lord went deeper and farther with the outward things: "go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." It seems to me that this parable shows us that God cares very much for our outward actions. The Christian life is not solely defined, nor assessed by our subjective realization and experience of the life of God within. No, we are no longer under the law, but we are still bound and obligated to "fulfill" the law in our words, behavior and actions. To say that "we only care for life" is an affront and offence to God and his Word.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sons to Glory!,
I guess my question would be "what do you mean by 'The Christian life'?" If you mean to subjectively experience the life of God and all its various aspects, such as love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, peace, etc in our inner man, then I would agree that the Christian life is impossible without the life of Christ within us. Yet the Christian life also has an objective, observable and assessable aspect as well. As a matter of fact, according to the teachings of the Lord Jesus, and those of the scripture writing apostles, the real test of whether or not we actually have the life of Christ within us is discernible by the words that come out of our mouth, and even more by our actions. When taken to extreme, the notion that Christian life is merely "the life of Christ within us" leads to the imbibing such absurd teachings as "we don't care for right or wrong, we only care for life!". To be sure, the history of the Local Church of Witness Lee has shown us the damage that ensues when people imbibe such teachings.

A man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
Mark 10:17-22

To put some meat on the bones of what I'm trying to say here, I have just posted the story of the rich young man who asked the Lord Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Firstly, I would note that the Lord did not answer "eat my flesh and drink my blood", or even "believe in Me". In fact he reiterated a number of the the 10 Commandments - the law. The young man was quick to proclaim "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" The Lord Jesus did not tell this man "good job, you have done all the outward things, now you have to eat my flesh and drink my blood and believe in Me". No, the Lord went deeper and farther with the outward things: "go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." It seems to me that this parable shows us that God cares very much for our outward actions. The Christian life is not solely defined, nor assessed by our subjective realization and experience of the life of God within. No, we are no longer under the law, but we are still bound and obligated to "fulfill" the law in our words, behavior and actions. To say that "we only care for life" is an affront and offence to God and his Word.

Jesus told us to be perfect too, and love those that spitefully use us - let's try that without His indwelling! Yes, as James tells us, faith without the outward manifestation (works) is dead. Jesus also told us that apart from Him we can do how much? Exactly nothing. So we begin and finish by the Spirit. Nothing else cuts it, period.

If a man could do all the things outwardly that Jesus spoke of in the so-called Beatitudes, he would still be dead and completely in vanity without Christ's life within animating him - it would amount to zero. One little word spoken or one small action taken through the life of Christ within is much more than 10,000 good things without Him.

And, sorry, I really don't care what was preached or twisted by WL or the LC. That was then and this is now. Erroneous things were conveyed and still are, but that's life swimming in the cesspool of the world we're in (and of which He has ultimate control).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

The answer is simple. It is definitially impossible.

The problem is that there are so many trying to define what it means to have the life of Christ within us. Some try to say that you need to have had your morning watch to have the life of Christ within you (or within you sufficiently) to actually live the Christian life. Or be "calling on the Lord" somewhat regularly. Or thinking spiritual thoughts.

But Peter said we had all we needed for life and Godliness. And though never as directly stated, Paul did also when he declared various aspects of our union with Christ as facts, not things needed to be undertaken or worked-up.

Yet, while I understand the meaning of the statement you quoted when its source is presumed to be from a leader of the LC, it is a true statement. Those who are not believers cannot be said to have the life of Christ within them. And no matter how much they may seem to live a life that is like that of a Christian, they can never be said to live the Christian life.

So, as a statement without context, it is entirely true. But when understood in the way it was intended, it is nothing short of slander on the status of non-LC Christians.

Okay, I get it. But not everything has to be answered by how the LC has twisted something, does it? As you said, the answer to it is simple - No, the Christian life is not possible without the life of Christ within us.

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh?" Galatians 3:2-3

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, I get it. But not everything has to be answered by how the LC has twisted something, does it? As you said, the answer to it is simple - No, the Christian life is not possible without the life of Christ within us.

Don't forget that you are asking the question in the middle of a context — "Making sense of the Lord's Recovery Movement."

So, as we both said, without context, it is entirely true. Those without the life of Christ (the unsaved) cannot live the Christian life.

But there are those who are busy (within the context of LC/LRM theology) declaring that there are many impediments to living the Christian life. Even reasons that you should not try (at any particular time). And they even make statements suggesting that you are not "in Christ" if you have not been engaged in certain kinds of spiritual activities, much of which involve peculiar LC practices or the reading of LC "editorial" materials (writings of "The Ministry").

So, on what basis do we think that we need to try to figure out how it is that we "experience the cross?" I'm not saying that it does not happen, or is somehow a completely wrong theological question. But rather, on what basis do we need to be seeking to figure out how it is that we "experience the cross?" Is there some statement that suggests we need to be figuring this out?

I would think that it is more likely that we need to seek to understand what it means to live the Christian life — a life that displays the nature of God/Christ. Not just figure out who can live that life (I think we already know).

That doesn't mean evangelism in the popular sense, but righteousness and love. Be the ones who are pure in heart, hungering and thursting for righteousness, etc. Something that displays the One that we have found to be the "beautiful One," as a song has said. The One that we can be seen to trust in when things are not going our way (when you don't move the mountains I'm needing you to move). The One that is mighty to save.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for getting us back on track, Mike! (I was wondering just what WWJD? had to do with the topic of experiencing the cross - not sure . . .)

I think it all (including experiencing the cross) has to be quite simple: Seek Him, listen to Him and obey Him. Everything He has for us is already there in Christ, that is, in the indwelling Spirit, right?

Maybe this is trying too hard figure out the exact formula . . .

[JJ]

Good discussion guys. Yes, WWJD was something of a diversion. But, I thought the discussion showed its relevance.

Regarding the statement "The Christian life is not possible without the inner life of Christ". the end of John 15:5 https://biblehub.com/john/15-corroborates it while the first part and Phillipians 4:13 https://biblehub.com/philippians/4-13.htm make more positive statements about what happens in Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

Good discussion guys. Yes, WWJD was something of a diversion. But, I thought the discussion showed its relevance.

Regarding the statement "The Christian life is not possible without the inner life of Christ". the end of John 15:5 https://biblehub.com/john/15-corroborates it while the first part and Phillipians 4:13 https://biblehub.com/philippians/4-13.htm make more positive statements about what happens in Christ.

Good verses! And "When I am week, then I am strong." We can't be any weaker than being dead, and that's the reality of where we are in Him!

The WWJD? thing might actually be a decent thread of its own . . . (unless it's been done before)