LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Church

[aron]

Originally Posted by JacobHoward

Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming!

If I may be somewhat importune, may I suggest "God's economy" as an area worth consideration? Some of us on this forum have looked at it and concluded (surprise) that there's nothing there. Or little, at any rate.

And "God's economy" is perhaps the best way to see the Lee mind meld, other than OCOC and a few other sacred LC teachings. (Think the opposite of the Spock mind meld in Star Trek: in this case Lee's thoughts become your own).

Everyone in the LC knows that Paul wrote Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to tell certain ones not to teach things other than "God's economy" (RecV translation) which is in faith. But Paul didn't say what "God's economy" was other than to link it with faith. In the LC we got book after book on "God's economy". It was God dispensing Himself into man to make man God in life and nature. It was enjoying Christ as everything for the building up of the body. It was the NT believer enjoying grace. It was man being made in God's image, to contain Him, like a glove contains the hand. Like a soda bottle being made to contain soda, man was made to contain God. This "dispensing" was "God's economy".

But if you look at Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25, they came to Antioch when the "dispensing" in Jerusalem was completed (RecV translation; others say "ministry" or "ministration" or "service"), and that dispensing wasn't of the type alluded to above. When the brothers in Jerusalem told Paul to "remember the poor" (Galatians 2:10), he didn't say, "No, sorry, that's a dead work - I'm here to enjoy Christ on the proper ground". No, Paul replied that he was eager to do it. If you look at Corinthians and Romans he makes some mention of this remembrance, that folks are to lay aside something for the poor of Jerusalem. Then at the end of Acts he told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (Acts 6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy.

Instead we got the selfish, self-oriented "enjoying God", which was then ripe for manipulation. Jesus taught to care for the despised other, and your reward would be great in heaven. There are two separate possible versions of "God's economy" seen here (there may be others, of course). I'll go with second version, which seems to have more scriptural support.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

...at the end of Acts Paul told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy..

OT commands

Psalm 41:1,2 For the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. Blessed is he who cares for the poor; the LORD will deliver him in the day of trouble. The LORD will protect and preserve him; He will bless him in the land and refuse to surrender him to the will of his foes.…

Deuteronomy 15:9-11 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought in your heart: “The seventh year, the year of release, is near,” so that you look upon your poor brother begrudgingly and give him nothing. He will cry out to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin. Give generously to him, and do not let your heart be grieved when you do so. And because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything to which you put your hand. For there will never cease to be poor in the land; that is why I am commanding you to open wide your hand to your brother and to the poor and needy in your land.…

Proverbs 22:9 A generous man will be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Then you read Paul in 2 Cor 8 and 9, he goes into an extended riff on this. Like for most of 2 chapters. Gee, I wonder why? And who is the donation for - Paul's family business? A new headquarters building for his ministry? No, for the poor. The focus of the epistolic text is consistent, and follows the commands of Jesus, who fulfilled the OT commands.

This looks more like God's economy to me. And if you say that I can't prove it, well, Lee's "proof" was that "the whole Bible shows just this one thing" then he did a cut-and-paste job with verses. Paul never said God's economy was what WL said it was. My version is most clearly given in Galatians 2:10 -- the leading ones told Paul to remember the poor, and he replied that he was eager to do it. And I find this theme consistently in the Bible from beginning to end, with Jesus as exemplar. Look at him going to the dispossessed, telling the disciples to find and help "the least of these my brothers", look at Zacchaeus saying, "See, the half of my goods I give to the poor" and Jesus' approval and blessing, and the clear pattern of alignment with this theme in Acts and the epistles, as I showed earlier.

2 Cor 9:7-9 Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: “He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.”…
____________

But my main point here, is that the burden of proof is on Witness Lee to show that "God's economy" was what he said it was. Where does Paul or Jesus or anyone say "God's economy is this Processed Triune God and spiritual dispensing"? No, it was stitched together out of disparate pictures and types.

I only offer my alternative as a reply to one who says, "Well, what else could it possibly be?" It could be something like what I have briefly outlined. Or it could be something else. But there's no proof that it was what Lee said it was. And Lee's version was self-oriented, which makes me doubly suspicious. My version is more closely aligned with the great command "Love thy neighbor as thyself". As are all the examples which I cited above.

[JJ]

Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm

[aron]

Originally Posted by JJ

Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm

Yes, in addition to being "eager" to help the poor of Jerusalem in Galatians 2, we see his lengthy discourses in 2 Cor 8 and 9, and this section in Roman's 15:

25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way. 29 I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.

And then you have his public declaration in Acts 24:17 that he'd returned bringing alms for his people. Paul was not merely a man of his word, but clearly believed that he was keeping the commands of the Lord, as did all the apostles. So why isn't that God's economy?

Conversely, how can the wordsmiths of Anaheim show us that their version of God's economy is instead the correct interpretation, versus this or any other? Other than that their version was perhaps more effective in luring naiive young people, or "good building material", versus actually going out and helping others who couldn't repay you in this age? Jesus taught that if you do this, your reward would be great in heaven.

Or is Jesus' word, and Paul and Peter and James and John's obedience to this word, merely a "low gospel" which has been superseded by abstractions culled from snippets here and there? Lee would give us things like 1 Corinthians 15:45 "b" - I just gave 5 verses from Romans 15, plus all those other verses. Read 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 sometime. It's spelled out in great detail what Paul is doing. Again, the money is not going for Paul or his cohort, or 'guanxi network' - it's going to the poor. Same thing with Peter and John in the first chapters of Acts, with Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25. It's a dispensing quite different from the one Witness Lee was presenting us.

It's something to consider. But in the LC, consideration wasn't encouraged. Instead, blind thoughtless obedience to the ministry was encouraged. So I'm presenting an alternative, if anyone is interested. And I'm glad to see folks like Jo Casteel and Jacob Howard publicly speaking up.

[JacobHoward]

Hi there, all! The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available on thelordsrecovery.org.

https://thelordsrecovery.org/thread/...-conditions-1/

[aron]

Originally Posted by JacobHoward

The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available..

Effective writing, powerfully constructed case. Clear, logical, concise, simple layout, moderate in tone, easy to follow. I read the whole thing in a few minutes. Great resource for the interested public.

And it fits my memory of the experience. You'd sit under this kind of speaking and get sucked in. Unless you actively resisted, you'd acquiesce and become elitist.

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for posting! As I read through it, I realized that this is not a display of love as conveyed in 1st Corinthians chapter 13. Love does not seek its own. Love is not puffed-up and doesn't think of itself in a way that exalts itself.

At the end of his life, Lee publicly confessed that love was the missing ingredient in The Recovery.

What does Jesus have to say? "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)

What does Paul have to say? "If I do not have love, then I am nothing!" (1 Cor 13:2)

[aron]

Originally Posted by JacobHoward

The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now posted

A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.

Sometimes on this forum we make the same error of overgeneralization, and I've seen replies from the LC faithful, "That's not my experience!" But the LordsRecovery.org thread is using WL's own writings as basis of the critique in question, so it's a fairly solid position.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

What WL did was poison the minds of LC members towards their non-LC fellows, with stereotypes and prejudices, to make fellowship (interaction) more difficult.

Exactly! Took a decade for the Lord to, just a little bit, overcome that stigma in me!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.

I regularly watched WL compare the best of the Recovery to the worst of so-called Christianity.

Why no fair comparisons? Why not compare some newly baptized on-fire believer in Nowhereville to his profligate Office Manager, Philip Lee?