Boxjobox on modalism

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

The entire thought of the church, the scripture, God, Christ, the trinity controversy, apostles, the truth, church practices has a history since the resurrection of Christ and the pouring out of the Spirit. WL/ the LC is not apart from this whole history. Obviously, the writings we have as scripture do not include the teachings that God is triune, and I would say the teachings that Jesus is God falls in this as well. I realize that this is highly controversial, particularly considering church history. None the less, in my reading and considering of the NT and considering what a major change such a belief would have been to the Jews as well as to the gentiles, such a concept as a man being God would have had to have a large, expansive teaching to be accepted, and that just doesn’t appear in the NT.

Boxjobox, I can see how Christians throughout history have focused on the man Jesus who died on the cross for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now is enthroned. But there are too many N.T. verses which also plainly show his eternal deity. With that we also have so many parallels between O.T. and N.T. which show us plainly that Jesus is the Jehovah of old.

Because so many errant heresies hinge upon Jesus being only human, I would hope that you would reconsider your views here. Absolutely the humanity of Jesus is emphasized, but that in no way negates His eternal Deity as God.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Boxjobox, I can see how Christians throughout history have focused on the man Jesus who died on the cross for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now is enthroned. But there are too many N.T. verses which also plainly show his eternal deity. With that we also have so many parallels between O.T. and N.T. which show us plainly that Jesus is the Jehovah of old.

Because so many errant heresies hinge upon Jesus being only human, I would hope that you would reconsider your views here. Absolutely the humanity of Jesus is emphasized, but that in no way negates His eternal Deity as God.

I would disagree with you on this- Recent Christians seem more intent on setting Jesus up as God. Have you considered that if the apostles were setting Jesus up as Jehovah of old you would have the Jews doing more than throwing dust in the air and renting their clothes. There would of necessity need much speaking/teaching to convey this new “revelation”. If the NT/ Holy Spirit was intent on bringing us to believe Jesus is Jehovah, I would think many of those parallels you say exist would have been brought to the forefront. The gospel is a simple message to bring us to recognize that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God; is does not include a message to bring up to believe that Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit honors this simple gospel such as John 3:16. Look and read what Peter told Cornelius and look what the results were.
By saying we are supposed to make some quantum leap from the gospel to a Jesus is Jehovah belief, to me, seems like a dereliction of duty on the part of the Holy Spirit and a shortage of revelation on the part of the apostles. Sorry, bro, I’ll stick to what is the gospel message. I’m quite happy to know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus told Mary quite plainly, I go to my God and your God, my Father and Your Father. I’ve heard all the great “teachings” of trinity- it does nothing for me but lead me to either think God is playing a terrible joke or christianity over time developed quite a myth. I choose to accept the words of Jesus as recorded by John- eternal life is to know the Father, the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent- this really witnesses with me as truth- triune god, sorry, it’s confusion. It sells a lot of books and gives people an air of authority, but it doesn’t build the truth or elicit the witness of the Holy Spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Have you considered that if the apostles were setting Jesus up as Jehovah of old you would have the Jews doing more than throwing dust in the air and renting their clothes?

By saying we are supposed to make some quantum leap from the gospel to a Jesus is Jehovah belief, to me, seems like a dereliction of duty on the part of the Holy Spirit and a shortage of revelation on the part of the apostles. Sorry, bro, I’ll stick to what is the gospel message. I’m quite happy to know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.

John began his Gospel with the absolutely incredible statement (1.3) "All things came into being thru Him (Jesus Christ, the word of God), and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."

The Jews knew distinctly and specifically who their Creator was. Isaiah (45.11-12) reiterated what they already knew to emphasize his message to Israel: "Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker: Ask me of the things to come, concerning my sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it. I, even My own hands, have stretched out the heavens."

Yes, the Jews reacted. Yes, they thru dust in the air. And yes, they did far more than this, plotting to kill the apostles. They began their murder schemes while Jesus was alive, continued after His ascension, continued with plots to murder the apostles who preached the gospel, and continued in every city the apostles visited. Have you not read?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

John began his Gospel with the absolutely incredible statement (1.3) "All things came into being thru Him (Jesus Christ, the word of God), and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."

The Jews knew distinctly and specifically who their Creator was. Isaiah (45.11-120 reiterated what they already knew to emphasize his message to Israel: "Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker: Ask me of the things to come, concerning my sons, and concerning the work of My hands, command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it. I, even My own hands, have stretched out the heavens."

Yes, the Jews reacted. Yes, they thru dust in the air. And yes, they did far more than this, plotting to kill the apostles. They began their murder schemes while Jesus was alive, continued after His ascension, continued with plots to murder the apostles who preached the gospel, and continued in every city the apostles visited. Have you not read?

Ohio, yes the Jews often plotted to kill the apostles, but NOT because they preached Jesus is Jehovah. Read through the account of Stephen- what really ticked them off was his saying he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing by His right hand. I would encourage you to look through the book of Acts, and consider what was said each time the gospel was preached. If you find a Jesus is Jehovah gospel, I really would like to discuss it. But look how God is spoken of and how Christ is revealed. No recording of apostles being killed because of a Jesus is God message. And this is what I mean, how a true recovery, and a ministry of recovery would lift up the whole view of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and place Christ as resurrected and empowered at the right hand of God. Consider also carefully the wording in Galatians, where Paul explained his gospel and warns against different gospel. Read carefully 1Cor. 15 where Paul speaks of the gospel he presents. If the correct ministry had been there in the recovery, the ministry of the scripture, we all would have had a healthy understanding and worship of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. The whole trinity thing did not exist in the foundational church- it wasn’t preached.

James tells Paul to go to the temple and offer. He also says do you see the multitude of Jews who believe including priests. Do you really think this multitude of Jews were confessing Jesus is Jehovah? That would have been civil war!
No, the Holy Spirit just does not testify to Jesus is Jehovah. John sums up his gospel stating that it was written so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that we may have life in his name. Jesus speaks that eternal life comes through knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. This is the testimony of John.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Ohio, yes the Jews often plotted to kill the apostles, but NOT because they preached Jesus is Jehovah. Read through the account of Stephen- what really ticked them off was his saying he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing by His right hand. I would encourage you to look through the book of Acts, and consider what was said each time the gospel was preached. If you find a Jesus is Jehovah gospel, I really would like to discuss it. But look how God is spoken of and how Christ is revealed. No recording of apostles being killed because of a Jesus is God message. And this is what I mean, how a true recovery, and a ministry of recovery would lift up the whole view of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and place Christ as resurrected and empowered at the right hand of God. Consider also carefully the wording in Galatians, where Paul explained his gospel and warns against different gospel. Read carefully 1Cor. 15 where Paul speaks of the gospel he presents. If the correct ministry had been there in the recovery, the ministry of the scripture, we all would have had a healthy understanding and worship of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. The whole trinity thing did not exist in the foundational church- it wasn’t preached.

James tells Paul to go to the temple and offer. He also says do you see the multitude of Jews who believe including priests. Do you really think this multitude of Jews were confessing Jesus is Jehovah? That would have been civil war!
No, the Holy Spirit just does not testify to Jesus is Jehovah. John sums up his gospel stating that it was written so that we would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that we may have life in his name. Jesus speaks that eternal life comes through knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. This is the testimony of John.

You keep bringing up "true recovery," and I would rather discuss "true Bible." This seems to be happening on every thread nowadays. Some folks need to realize that you will not find the truth by throwing out everything from the LC's.

The Bible testifies that Jesus is Jehovah. I gave you one example. Many more exist.

When Thomas said after the resurrection, "my Lord and my God!" Why didn't Jesus correct him? Perhaps Jesus was still shaken up by those 3 days in the tomb, but John knew better, eh? Why didn't John set Thomas straight? He was the "doubter" afterall, so now both Jesus and John are heretics for allowing Thomas to worship Jesus as God.

In every other case in the Bible, when someone tried to worship the angel or messenger of God, the person was immediately stopped. Don't you think it was quite arrogant of Jesus to accept worship as God? Perhaps God scolded Him when He ascended to the throne?

The testimony of John is his entire Gospel, not just your hand-picked verses, which I also treasure.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You keep bringing up "true recovery," and I would rather discuss "true Bible." This seems to be happening on every thread nowadays. Some folks need to realize that you will not find the truth by throwing out everything from the LC's.

The Bible testifies that Jesus is Jehovah. I gave you one example. Many more exist.

When Thomas said after the resurrection, "my Lord and my God!" Why didn't Jesus correct him? Perhaps Jesus was still shaken up by those 3 days in the tomb, but John knew better, eh? Why didn't John set Thomas straight? He was the "doubter" afterall, so now both Jesus and John are heretics for allowing Thomas to worship Jesus as God.

In every other case in the Bible, when someone tried to worship the angel or messenger of God, the person was immediately stopped. Don't you think it was quite arrogant of Jesus to accept worship as God? Perhaps God scolded Him when He ascended to the throne?

The testimony of John is his entire Gospel, not just your hand-picked verses, which I also treasure.

You know, Ohio, right after what John records about Thomas, John writes his explanation of why he wrote his gospel, and his explanation does not include a Jesus is Jehovah reason. I didnt just hand pick a verse out of nowhere. It was the logical summary of John.

I think we can agree that the gospel would be that Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins and redemption and that God raised him from the dead and rewarded him by making him both Lord and Christ. Thomas seems to have missed a very important meeting of the apostles where the resurrected Christ revealed himself. Thomas doubted, which would mean he did not really believe God raised the crucified body, which would also mean Jesus was not made Lord by God. Seeing is believing for Thomas and it seems that his statement means he was restored back to believing that Jesus is the Christ and that God did raise him from the dead. I take his statement to be that acknowledgement, not that he was declaring that Jesus was God himself. We have no scriptural basis to give us an understanding of this instance. The other gospels do not include it, and it is not mentioned elsewhere. But we do have the summary of John as to why he wrote his gospel immediately following, and it does not include a Jesus is Jehovah reason. We also have the history of the gospel being preached in Acts and there is no gospel presented of Jesus being God.

I realize I am a poor unfortunate who left the WL/LSM/LC and am relegated to the alt dungeon because of my wickedness in not having a trinitarian gospel. So my explanation is highly questionable by those who grasp that Jesus is God thing. I'm still enjoying the fruits of the low, simple elementary gospel I derive from reading the NT which the Holy Spirit witnesses to.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I realize I am a poor unfortunate who left the WL/LSM/LC and am relegated to the alt dungeon because of my wickedness in not having a trinitarian gospel. So my explanation is highly questionable by those who grasp that Jesus is God thing. I'm still enjoying the fruits of the low, simple elementary gospel I derive from reading the NT which the Holy Spirit witnesses to.

Your opinions go well beyond the so-called "trinitarian gospel."

You have rejected the Deity of Jesus Christ. That is why UntoHim has decided to exclude that kind of discussion on his own bought-and-paid-for forum. Most Christians would consider your theology as that of the JW's.

I have believed my entire life that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. That tenet of my faith has nothing to do with the LC, any denomination, or any theology.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Ohio, yes the Jews often plotted to kill the apostles, but NOT because they preached Jesus is Jehovah. Read through the account of Stephen- what really ticked them off was his saying he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing by His right hand. I would encourage you to look through the book of Acts, and consider what was said each time the gospel was preached. If you find a Jesus is Jehovah gospel, I really would like to discuss it. But look how God is spoken of and how Christ is revealed. No recording of apostles being killed because of a Jesus is God message.

Classic subreption here.

Have you not read John 5.18?

"For this the Jews sought all the more to kill Jesus, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."


Also, referring to your comment about Stephen's martyrdom, did Stephen really see the Father? He who dwells in unapproachable light was seen by Stephen? But John said "no man has ever seen God." (1.18) And Stephen saw what Moses and all mankind have never seen? Perhaps Stephen saw the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ standing by the throne? (II Cor 4.6)

[Boxjobox]

Oh, woe unto me. Here I am, relegated to suffer in the alt site. When shall I hear the gospel of the triune god? When shall my suffering bring me the great revelation. Ohio comes to wet my burning lips with some of that trinity holy water, but it doesn't sooth.
Holy Spirit, why? Thomas was not with the 10 when when Jesus entered the locked doors and breathed the Holy Spirit on them. But then you gave him this greater revelation than all the other apostles had received (according to the trinity gospel). But Holy Spirit, did only John know about this? Holy Spirit, Luke talks about a different outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and Thomas was there at that time, because he spoke in tongues with all the others speaking of all the magnificent works of God. And, and Holy Spirit, Thomas was with the other 11 when Peter gave that 1st gospel message and said
Acts2 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know; 23him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: 24whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David saith concerning him, I beheld the Lord always before my face; For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; Moreover my flesh also shall dwell in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou madest known unto me the ways of life; Thou shalt make me full of gladness with thy countenance.

29Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; 31he foreseeing this'spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

34For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. 36Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Holy Spirit, why did you allow Peter to speak such a low gospel and why did you honor it by convicting 3000 souls in that one instance. Why, Holy Spirit did you not have Thomas speak and proclaim to all that Jesus was God?
And Holy Spirit, could you not have had Thomas write a gospel telling us that Jesus was Jehovah? Peter did such a lousy job. Couldn't Thomas at least been led to write maybe a small portion, like Jude to let us know about his great revelation. And Holy Spirit, that Jesus who told us before his passion that the one true God is the Father, couldn't he have explained the trinity to us in such clear words? Oh, Holy Spirit, I know, Peter taught elementary school to the 4th grade, Paul got us through 8th grade, and John was our high school teacher! And here I am wallowing in the elementary materials whilst so many others are high school graduates. Maybe I should buy a pair of those Nicene glasses and re-read the scriptures. I guess I never should have gotten out of the WL college classes. That WL was a real wise guy. He was able to solder together the phonograph, the cassette player and the am/fm radio to make that wonderful stereo system. In his classes we didn't need the elementary stuff with the God and Father of Jesus, we now hade the all inclusive processed stereo. Holy Spirit, I think he also had you hard wired to that all inclusive modern invention. Holy Spirit, why did Paul ever waste his time talking about bending his knee to the God of Jesus that we would all see the revelation of what God did in raising Christ from the dead, when all the time Jesus was Jehovah. Seems sooo confusing. Holy Spirit, why do you have this confusion? When will I hear the triune gospel? When will I be allowed to cast off these natural fleshy low thoughts and concepts about the God and Father of Jesus and obtain a college degree in trinitarianism so I too could have a seat on the main page instead of wasting away in agony in the alt purgatory. Will my sins of unbelief ever be cleansed. Do I have to be relegated to only know the God and Father of Jesus, and Jesus the Christ whom God raised from the dead? I wanna grow up too! I don't want to just be a priest to the God and Father of Jesus as John wrote of, I wanna see and use this new modern stereo like all the main pagers. They seem to dance to a different turner by listening to that thing. Oh well, let me review my elementary lessons again: Peter, full of the Holy Spirit talked about this man Jesus, approved by God, whom God worked through, who was crucified, and whom God raised from the dead and gave him the position on the right hand of his God and Father, and 3000 were convicted in heart and received the gospel. Oh, this elementary stuff is so low! When will I ever reach the big leagues!

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Classic subreption here.

Have you not read John 5.18?

"For this the Jews sought all the more to kill Jesus, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."


Also, referring to your comment about Stephen's martyrdom, did Stephen really see the Father? He who dwells in unapproachable light was seen by Stephen? But John said "no man has ever seen God." (1.18) And Stephen saw what Moses and all mankind have never seen? Perhaps Stephen saw the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ standing by the throne? (II Cor 4.6)

You know, Ohio, it seems I did read that before, but I recall also reading Jesus' explaination in the rest of the chapter, and it seems he sets the record straight concerning His God and Fathe, and the relation between them..

[Sons to Glory!]

"Great is the mystery of godliness; God was manifested in the flesh . . ."

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself."

"To the Son He says, 'Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever.'"

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, He says, 'Let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

(1 Tim 3:16, 2 Cor 5:19, Heb 1:8,6)

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Classic subreption here

Also, referring to your comment about Stephen's martyrdom, did Stephen really see the Father? He who dwells in unapproachable light was seen by Stephen? But John said "no man has ever seen God." (1.18) And Stephen saw what Moses and all mankind have never seen? Perhaps Stephen saw the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ standing by the throne? (II Cor 4.6)

Ohio, I just quoted what Stephen said concerning seeing THE GLORY OF GOD.
John, in revelation also records that he saw a radiance of God/ His throne. Not sure why this seems odd to you.

John saw the throne of God, and later when Christ the Lamb appears it is referred to as the throne of God and the Lamb. Modern Christianity has a song that goes something like " the godhead three in one, the Father, Spirit, Son, the lion and the lamb, how great is our God". I guess in the trinitarian view, God is the lion and the lamb. If you sing it all enough, I guess you start accepting it as scripture. We sure did in the LC

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Ohio, I just quoted what Stephen said concerning seeing THE GLORY OF GOD.
John, in revelation also records that he saw a radiance of God/ His throne. Not sure why this seems odd to you.

John saw the throne of God, and later when Christ the Lamb appears it is referred to as the throne of God and the Lamb. Modern Christianity has a song that goes something like " the godhead three in one, the Father, Spirit, Son, the lion and the lamb, how great is our God". I guess in the trinitarian view, God is the lion and the lamb. If you sing it all enough, I guess you start accepting it as scripture. We sure did in the LC

Odd? The Bible is not odd. It's your comments that are odd.

But you never respond to my points, rather resort to further subreption. I like that word. It seems to fit your responses.

Brother, you seem to have thrown out too much of the good when you discarded your old LC baggage. You constantly refute my points with bad LC theology rather than with the Bible.

There is a Lamb on the throne for eternity. That Lamb is Jesus Christ. He is also the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and so much more. When we one day meet God, He will have the face of Jesus, complete with his 5 wounds suffered on the cross.