Boxjobox on modalism

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trapped, great post, spelling out so many truths. What makes conversations with BJB so frustrating are his constant fall backs, saying we are stuck with Lee-isms or old church-isms about trinitarian-isms.

I went so far as to "compromise" with BJB and concede with a "two-person" God, the Father and the Son, in a loving and eternal relationship. But BJB won't acknowledge or identify what he believes about Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the living God. Is He God or not? If not God, based on what? How then can He be eternal, much better than the angels, the Creator of all things, all-knowing, and how could He be sinless. How could He always do God's will, always know what the Father was speaking, always do what pleases Him, always be in the Father's presence? Until those few hours on the cross.

If it wasn't for the same errors inflicting the JW's and other cults throughout church history, identifying biblical truths concerning Jesus Christ, I would have stepped away from this unending discussion long ago.

Thanks......boy was it an inner journey to get there. Truly never thought I'd be re-evaluating this teaching, that's for sure. If responding to BJB wasn't helping me sharpen my own understanding, I would also have stepped away a long time ago. Frustrating to continually affirm I am not talking about the Trinity, only to be immediately accused of being Trinitarian, when it's totally obvious through simple comprehension I'm not speaking of a Trinity. But, honestly, the Father being God and the Son also being God but are not the same God (in the same way a father is a man and his kid is also a man, but yet are not the same men) make so much more sense now, so overall its been valuable and I'm glad to be participating.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks......boy was it an inner journey to get there. Truly never thought I'd be re-evaluating this teaching, that's for sure. If responding to BJB wasn't helping me sharpen my own understanding, I would also have stepped away a long time ago. Frustrating to continually affirm I am not talking about the Trinity, only to be immediately accused of being Trinitarian, when it's totally obvious through simple comprehension I'm not speaking of a Trinity. But, honestly, the Father being God and the Son also being God but are not the same God (in the same way a father is a man and his kid is also a man, but yet are not the same men) make so much more sense now, so overall its been valuable and I'm glad to be participating.

Me too. Long ago I decided that my goal was not to win an argument or persuade another poster. That would be far too frustrating, and discouraging, knowing some of the posters that pass thru these parts.

Firstly I write for the reader, the lurker, the passersby who might need something I have learned in my own journey. But I also write for myself, clarifying what might have been taken for granted over the years. Searching the scriptures is a great thing when it leads to discovery of life and truth in Jesus. Hundreds of topics have been examined in this way. Some things like the ground of locality, which I held for decades, has been readily discarded in the LC trash can. Other things, I am willing to die far.

I am thankful to have spent time in the Recovery examining all sides of this debate. We have studied verses in depth, which many just leave for theologians. Consider Paul's word in Colossians, "all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily." This verse kind of shoots holes in everyone's theology. Yet I love it. And believe it.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Me too. Long ago I decided that my goal was not to win an argument or persuade another poster. That would be far too frustrating, and discouraging, knowing some of the posters that pass thru these parts.

Firstly I write for the reader, the lurker, the passersby who might need something I have learned in my own journey. But I also write for myself, clarifying what might have been taken for granted over the years. Searching the scriptures is a great thing when it leads to discovery of life and truth in Jesus. Hundreds of topics have been examined in this way. Some things like the ground of locality, which I held for decades, has been readily discarded in the LC trash can. Other things, I am willing to die far.

I am thankful to have spent time in the Recovery examining all sides of this debate. We have studied verses in depth, which many just leave for theologians. Consider Paul's word in Colossians, "all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily." This verse kind of shoots holes in everyone's theology. Yet I love it. And believe it.

Ohio, I love it and believe it also all the fullness of the Father dwelt in Christ. But, Ohio, you better read all the verses in Col. 1 that lead up to this: vs 2 Paul speaks of God our Father, v3 the God and Father. I would urge you to read slowly through Colossians and look how Paul uses the terms God and Christ. Paul is not creating a new God for the Colossians but telling us plainly about the working of God by, with, in Christ Jesus to fulfill His plan. Realize that this plan also should bring us, the church to be filled with all the fullness of God. Remember what Peter spoke to Cornelius? For God was with him. Have you read through Acts yet and looked at all the gospels preached and what they said about Jesus?
A ministry for the recovery of the church should match Paul’s and not go off creating a false theology and selling it on snippets of verses.

Also, dig out your old Bill Freeman Testimony of the Triune God in Church History, I think that was the title, and ask yourself Why would such a book have to be written if the scripture so plainly portrays God as triune, and so clearly informs us that Jesus is God? Why did Freeman not include Paul’s statement that there is one God, the Father. If we are to know that God is triune, Ohio, are we supposed to pick it up from fancy stringing together of parts of verses? From a 4th century decree? From all the books and footnotes written since the 3rd century? The scripture is a pretty pathetic testimony if the main thing we are supposed to pick up is that God is triune and that Jesus is God. The gospels preached don’t say it, Paul didn’t preach it, John has Jesus telling us there is one true God, the Father, Paul tells us that the oneness of our fellowship is based on one God and Father.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks......boy was it an inner journey to get there. Truly never thought I'd be re-evaluating this teaching, that's for sure. If responding to BJB wasn't helping me sharpen my own understanding, I would also have stepped away a long time ago. Frustrating to continually affirm I am not talking about the Trinity, only to be immediately accused of being Trinitarian, when it's totally obvious through simple comprehension I'm not speaking of a Trinity. But, honestly, the Father being God and the Son also being God but are not the same God (in the same way a father is a man and his kid is also a man, but yet are not the same men) make so much more sense now, so overall its been valuable and I'm glad to be participating.

Ohio, do you see what is produced when we start down the road of Jesus is God, and God is triune? Here is someone who is still trying to figure it all out. Perhaps, Ohio, you who see and understand the whole concept would want to help Trapped come to a full knowledge of God, and save him from going off the beaten orthodox path and introducing all sorts of strange thoughts.

I would think, though, it would be easier to acknowledge that the scripture is not in the business of giving us a trinity, nor of us speaking of Jesus as God, but that the scripture if clearly showing us that there is one God the Father, who is above all, through all and in all, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, the son of God, who died for our sins, whom God raised from the dead and set at his own right hand, whom God gave to us, the church to be our head. This is the gospel that is preached, that brings us to faith, with which the Holy Spirit anoints.