Quote From Today's Watchman/Witness Wednesday

[Ohio]

During all the years I have been in the church life, I have not seen one person who spoke negatively about the church who was under God's blessing. On the contrary, all who have said that the church was poor, low, or dead have been under a curse. -- WL

Common sense requires us to ask, "WL, how about all the negative things you have spoken about other Christians and other churches? Didn't you build your ministry on the negative speaking of other Christians and other churches?"

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Common sense requires us to ask, "WL, how about all the negative things you have spoken about other Christians and other churches? Didn't you build your ministry on the negative speaking of other Christians and other churches?"

Exactly! It is one thing to speak about how Christians are in the wilderness, being merely sustained by manna and that they need to be satisfied fully in the good land. I think WL's position was that the LC had entered into the good land, and that the rest of Christianity were still wandering in the wilderness. First of all, I think it arrogance to say that we have arrived (and a little like Laodecia), but then to rail at others because they haven't made it in yet . . . doing that over and over just sets up fleshly pride and division, devoid of love. ("We're on the right side of the river and you guys aren't! You're so hopeless and dumb over there!")

BTW - I'm reading a book now by Major Ian Thomas ("The Saving Life of Christ"), where he lays out how most Christians have resigned themselves to being merely "sustained" in the wilderness. Saved ones have come out from Egypt, but most are not really being fully satisfied and resting in the good land yet. But his is an exhortation to look to Christ in all things, not a condemnation. I think what WL and the LC got into was condemnation.

[UntoHim]

During all the years I have been in the church life, I have not seen one person who spoke negatively about the church who was under God's blessing. - Witness Lee

To Witness Lee, the terms "church life" and "the church" were synonyms for the exact same thing - The Local Church sect that he created, and in which he was the unquestioned, dictatorial leader. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the raw, unvarnished truth.
-

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To Witness Lee, the terms "church life" and "the church" were synonyms for the exact same thing - The Local Church sect that he created, and in which he was the unquestioned, dictatorial leader. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the raw, unvarnished truth.
-

Agreed. If he had just said "the church" there would be wiggle room to say Lee might have meant the true church on the earth, composed of all believers. But since he used the phrase "the church life".....this means he's talking about his own movement (which in his eyes is the entirety of "the church" anyway).

And even if he meant the church in general, what he's saying, as usual, doesn't hold up at all. Plenty of atheists, anti-theists, etc, speak against the church and yet plenty of them encounter God and get saved, and the sun shines and rain falls on them just as on Christians. Moreover, what on earth was going on in Revelation in the seven letters to the seven churches besides "speaking negatively" of the condition of those churches? Lee's words here end up putting a curse on Jesus Christ Himself, which is just ridiculous. I'm dumbfounded at this point how often people have to shut off their minds to accept so much of what Witness Lee said.

[Trapped]

Today's quote:

It is not a question of right or wrong; it is a question of whether or not one is like the bearer of the cross. In the church right and wrong have no place; all that counts is bearing the cross and accepting it's breaking. This produces the overflowing of God's life and accomplishes his will. --Watchman Nee's Testimony

UntoHim, do you choose Wednesday quotes specifically to MAKE us throw our hands up?!

This teaching, to me, seems to be one of the most insidious and interwoven in the LC......that "right and wrong have no place" in the church. It's almost precision engineered to be used in an abusive manner. Jesus and the apostles called wrong things wrong all over the place. God is the standard of right and wrong. The ten commandments are right and wrong. God punishes wrongdoing. This teaching genuinely makes me scratch my head, that it could have been read by so many eyes and heard by so many ears in the LC, and yet not a single person.....of tens of thousands of people.....says "this is totally upside down".

Well, I guess when you say that in the church right and wrong have no place, then you are inherently prevented from saying "that is wrong", aren't you.

Now I understand the term mindbender.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Today's quote:

It is not a question of right or wrong; it is a question of whether or not one is like the bearer of the cross. In the church right and wrong have no place; all that counts is bearing the cross and accepting it's breaking. This produces the overflowing of God's life and accomplishes his will. --Watchman Nee's Testimony

This teaching, to me, seems to be one of the most insidious and interwoven in the LC......that "right and wrong have no place" in the church. It's almost precision engineered to be used in an abusive manner. Jesus and the apostles called wrong things wrong all over the place. God is the standard of right and wrong. The ten commandments are right and wrong. God punishes wrongdoing. This teaching genuinely makes me scratch my head, that it could have been read by so many eyes and heard by so many ears in the LC, and yet not a single person.....of tens of thousands of people.....says "this is totally upside down".

Well, I guess when you say that in the church right and wrong have no place, then you are inherently prevented from saying "that is wrong", aren't you.

There is a corollary to this well worn LC platitude: "We only care for life!"

After 30 years in the LC, I had thought this saying still had merit until that one day I remember reading that this was Philip Lee's favorite saying. Ugh! That explains everything.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

UntoHim, do you choose Wednesday quotes specifically to MAKE us throw our hands up?!

Guilty as charged your honor

Now I understand the term mindbender.

Witness Lee learned from the best...and then so did we. God have mercy.
-

[countmeworthy]

I remember drinking the kool aid in 1975. “ It’s not a matter of wrong or right but a matter of life!” How could l have fallen for that lie? I totally get that solely good works do not get us to heaven. Neither do they lead us to Jesus. (Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and countless brilliant “good” people have rejected the Savior of their lives and of the world, Jesus Christ the King of kings.

But to say it’s not a matter of right or wrong in our newness of Life is truly as Trapped wrote, A Mindbender!

And btw, even in my time in the LC, I had no liberty in my spirit to do wrong!! The Holy Spirit was always ready to convict me, not to confuse it with condemnation. The power of repentance and the power of applying the Blood on my sins, strengthened my spirit and conscience.

One of the first scriptures the Holy Spirit imprinted in my spirit and soul was 1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Today's quote:

It is not a question of right or wrong; it is a question of whether or not one is like the bearer of the cross. In the church right and wrong have no place; all that counts is bearing the cross and accepting it's breaking. This produces the overflowing of God's life and accomplishes his will. --Watchman Nee's Testimony

UntoHim, do you choose Wednesday quotes specifically to MAKE us throw our hands up?!

This teaching, to me, seems to be one of the most insidious and interwoven in the LC......that "right and wrong have no place" in the church. It's almost precision engineered to be used in an abusive manner. Jesus and the apostles called wrong things wrong all over the place. God is the standard of right and wrong. The ten commandments are right and wrong. God punishes wrongdoing. This teaching genuinely makes me scratch my head, that it could have been read by so many eyes and heard by so many ears in the LC, and yet not a single person.....of tens of thousands of people.....says "this is totally upside down".

Well, I guess when you say that in the church right and wrong have no place, then you are inherently prevented from saying "that is wrong", aren't you.

Now I understand the term mindbender.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

And btw, even in my time in the LC, I had no liberty in my spirit to do wrong!!

The frustrating thing about this teaching is that, when taken to task, they as always, can twist it around to make the task-taker seem crazy. On one hand, in the ministry they say something like "wrong is still wrong, but life is higher than right." So they'll point to that and say, "see wrong is still wrong" and make it look like they are taking the highest purest most undefiled route, that is angelically floating above those dirty people who are merely doing "good".

But when you actually do try to point out something as "not right" they try to claim that very thing isn't "wrong" but is "following life". What a mess.

And now we are starting to blend up the garden of eden trees into an unintelligible mess that God never taught. Because on the one hand, they teach that good and evil are both of death (which is not true), but here we have evil is still evil and good is now something else. And where is all this in Genesis? crickets....

And the reality is, when you DO try to call something wrong that is wrong, that's exactly when they roll this saying out to stop you from pointing the wrong thing out. So they use it in an abusive way while they try to pass it off as the most pure way possible. It's sick.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Exactly! It is one thing to speak about how Christians are in the wilderness, being merely sustained by manna and that they need to be satisfied fully in the good land. I think WL's position was that the LC had entered into the good land, and that the rest of Christianity were still wandering in the wilderness. First of all, I think it arrogance to say that we have arrived (and a little like Laodecia), but then to rail at others because they haven't made it in yet . . . doing that over and over just sets up fleshly pride and division, devoid of love. ("We're on the right side of the river and you guys aren't! You're so hopeless and dumb over there!")

BTW - I'm reading a book now by Major Ian Thomas ("The Saving Life of Christ"), where he lays out how most Christians have resigned themselves to being merely "sustained" in the wilderness. Saved ones have come out from Egypt, but most are not really being fully satisfied and resting in the good land yet. But his is an exhortation to look to Christ in all things, not a condemnation. I think what WL and the LC got into was condemnation.

I saw my post again this morning and thought I'd make a little correction to it. While what I said about WL thinking all Christians are just wondering in the wilderness, and that the LC has entered the good land - I think this was probably true of his speaking. However, new light I've received this past week is that ALL Christians actually are in the good land, which is just Christ Himself. What I've seen is that while "it's of God we are in Christ Jesus" (! Cor 1:30), our unrenewed minds may tell us otherwise. So while we are in the Good Land (again, this is Christ), we may be deceived and rather than trust the truth, we trust our experience which says we're just all messed up in the wilderness!

As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him
Colossians 1:30