LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Some people behave like animals, and it's hard to differentiate them at times. Haven't you heard that there are some people who want to marry their favorite pet? Don't you think that some pets and their owners "love" each other? I have been told that only love is needed for marriage.

Once we decide that marriage is no longer exclusively one man and one woman from birth, then the door is open to anything. Or do you discriminate against animals? Are you against polygamy?

The flaw in your reasoning has to do with consent and position of power.. Animals do not have consent in bestiality and is therefore harmful to the animal. So is pedophilia and necrophilia, incest among father and daughter, rape etc. there’s always one party hurt in the process or being disrespected. Define “door opening to almost everything”. what is the door open to? And homosexuality hasnt linearily led to legalization of other sorts of hanky pank nor does it have an affect on any other kind of relationship.

Polygamy is a whole other issue. Is it causing unhealthy boundaries, nonconsent, disrespect, jealousy in the relationship(s). if so , then it’s not moral. In the Old Testament, major characters were able to have multiple wives, kind david, solomon, abraham, isaac, etc. so it must have been condoned by God at the time. But elsewhere in the bible, the new testament talks about monogamy. The Bible can contradict itself at times.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

The flaw in your reasoning has to do with consent and position of power.. Animals do not have consent in bestiality and is therefore harmful to the animal. So is pedophilia and necrophilia, incest among father and daughter, rape etc. there’s always one party hurt in the process or being disrespected. Define “door opening to almost everything”. what is the door open to? And homosexuality hasnt linearily led to legalization of other sorts of hanky pank nor does it have an affect on any other kind of relationship.

Polygamy is a whole other issue. Is it causing unhealthy boundaries, nonconsent, disrespect, jealousy in the relationship(s). if so , then it’s not moral. In the Old Testament, major characters were able to have multiple wives, kind david, solomon, abraham, isaac, etc. so it must have been condoned by God at the time. But elsewhere in the bible, the new testament talks about monogamy. The Bible can contradict itself at times.

You bring up "consent and position of power." I agree, but when it comes to LGBTQ marriage, I never have heard this, rather only "love" is cited as the sole defining issue.

Regarding "morality," there is a whole array of diverse standards, which create endless conflicts. This is why I believe only God's standard of morality is valid and universal, i.e. one man and one woman constitute a marriage.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Regarding "morality," there is a whole array of diverse standards, which create endless conflicts. This is why I believe only God's standard of morality is valid and universal, i.e. one man and one woman constitute a marriage.

Yes I agree with you that there are different standards for morality, from cultural and historical lens. you can believe in the traditional marriage if you want. I respect that. For me, Im not so much a bible literalist so morality looks different for me

I’m here and I’m queer. 🌈 I’m 30 and left the LC at 24. I’m trained as a therapist, I’m an LGBT+ educator, and my primary mode of therapy was gender and sexuality affirmative counseling. Although I’m agnostic now, I’ve personally found a ton of healing in Jewish biblical theology. They do a lot less biblical literalism and rely more on bringing their religion into the real world of today (perhaps minus some ultra orthodox sects). There is plenty of argument out there from both Jewish scholars and Christian scholars alike who argue that the Bible never condemned homosexuality, but instead condemned pedophilia (which was rampant in Greek culture at the time) and infidelity. There are very sound linguistic arguments that anti lgbt+ portions of the Old Testament were purposely mis translated or at the very least translated through biases of the translator and the time. Personally I don’t give much credence to the NT as a source of theology on this topic because I think Paul was skewed on many topics such as marriage and tradition as well as gender and sexuality.

All that to say, there is no concrete agreement among biblical scholars that being gay is wrong or against the Bible. There is plenty of Biblical argument for minding one’s own business and letting people live their walk with God as they are called (see Roman’s 14 for a start). You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ephemeralsplendor

You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.

Who is hating & upset here? I don't think that four letter word ("hate") needs to be brought up here - we are having a civil discussion, and there is no need to escalate into that kind of accusation (which stops effective communication and can quickly descend into name calling, etc.). Considering the conversation so far, I think it's something of a strawman fallacy to say things like that . . .

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ephemeralsplendor

All that to say, there is no concrete agreement among biblical scholars that being gay is wrong or against the Bible. There is plenty of Biblical argument for minding one’s own business and letting people live their walk with God as they are called (see Roman’s 14 for a start). You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.

I agree with StG, where are you getting "hating queer people" from? Your post wasn't directed to anyone specific, so it sounds like you are pointing to everyone on this thread. Where have I, for example, said anything remotely like "hating" anyone? And where did I remotely insinuate that I'm upset about other people's relationships??

Glad you're here, but no need to point fingers at people who haven't done any of the things you're pointing fingers at them about.

Romans 14 is about eating or not eating meat, and observing or not observing days. It's not about sexual acts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Your post wasn't directed to anyone specific, so it sounds like you are pointing to everyone on this thread.

Not to likely at me. I'm clearly a LGBT+ supporting hetero. They can be whoever they want to be. I support love wherever anyone can find it. It's a rare commodity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not to likely at me. I'm clearly a LGBT+ supporting hetero. They can be whoever they want to be. I support love wherever anyone can find it. It's a rare commodity.

If it was a healthy love, they wouldn't accuse others of hating them right in the middle of a discussion.

Like I have continually said, the LGBT have special rights and the highest per capita income levels, then why do they constantly play the victim.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Yes I agree with you that there are different standards for morality, from cultural and historical lens. you can believe in the traditional marriage if you want. I respect that. For me, Im not so much a bible literalist so morality looks different for me

Where does your morality come from?

That's a serious question with no tone behind it. It's one that Christian apologists and their atheist debate partners spar on over and over. The boiled down version is that one side has an objective standard of morality outside themselves (God/Bible), and one side says there is no objective standard, and that the standard for each person is subjective.

Do either of those describe how you determine what is moral, good/bad, right/wrong? If not, how would you describe it for you?

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Where does your morality come from?

That's a serious question with no tone behind it. It's one that Christian apologists and their atheist debate partners spar on over and over. The boiled down version is that one side has an objective standard of morality outside themselves (God/Bible), and one side says there is no objective standard, and that the standard for each person is subjective.

Do either of those describe how you determine what is moral, good/bad, right/wrong? If not, how would you describe it for you?

Long story short, my morality is based on a combination of loose interpretation of bible, my personal subjective experiences of what is right and wrong that goes with my conscience and God. Life is full of gray areas so I cant say for sure what moral or immoral unless you give me a specific scenario. Like for example, Christians label the story of Sodom and Gomorahh as saying homosexuality is bad. but what kind of homosexuality? The people in those cities wanted to rape the angels/guests of Lot and Lot even offered up his two daughters for them to ganga rape in exchange for doing good hospitality and protection of the angel guests. Yet, Chrisitians use this story so much to condemn loving concensual homosexual relationships. For me, the immorality or reason why God may have destroyed the two cities was because of their disconcern and rude way of treating their guests, gang rape (forced sexual relations). For me, Lot was also immoral offering his daughter like that. But God didnt seem to care about Lot’s actions. He focused on the people in the citites who wanted to gang rape the angels.