LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Trapped, this post has me flooring in the floor. ... Let's stick with Jesus, and the two great commandments ... and not the law from long before Jesus.

Thanks for your fantastic post. Your laughing about my post also gave me a good laugh I sorely needed myself. I was taking the topic so seriously I didn't stop to think about what comical scenarios were being described (I mean poor guy, Lazarus is a beggar covered in sores licked by dogs [as the verses say] and he dies and ends up in someone's underwear instead......hardly the sweet release of death.....)

I agree with your post too. Jesus absolutely made it logical to love gay people. And God so loved the world, which last time I checked, includes everyone. Although I don't know specific concrete reasons why any given person has same-sex attractions, I have heard enough stories of people who say they desperately prayed not to feel that way, and that they have suffered for years where they would do anything to be rid of those attractions that I believe them when they say it's not a choice. That's why I'm on this thread, because I recognize the agony inside a person struggling with something they didn't seem to ask for, and on a basic level I wanted to understand it better in hopes my understanding could some day help someone dealing with it themselves. Or at least I might be the first Christian they encounter in their life who sits and listens and sees them because I had previously taken the time to discuss and comprehend the serious thing they are crushed by, rather than maybe all the other Christians before them who added to their pain.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks for your fantastic post. Your laughing about my post also gave me a good laugh I sorely needed myself. I was taking the topic so seriously I didn't stop to think about what comical scenarios were being described (I mean poor guy, Lazarus is a beggar covered in sores licked by dogs [as the verses say] and he dies and ends up in someone's underwear instead......hardly the sweet release of death.....)

I agree with your post too. Jesus absolutely made it logical to love gay people. And God so loved the world, which last time I checked, includes everyone. Although I don't know specific concrete reasons why any given person has same-sex attractions, I have heard enough stories of people who say they desperately prayed not to feel that way, and that they have suffered for years where they would do anything to be rid of those attractions that I believe them when they say it's not a choice. That's why I'm on this thread, because I recognize the agony inside a person struggling with something they didn't seem to ask for, and on a basic level I wanted to understand it better in hopes my understanding could some day help someone dealing with it themselves. Or at least I might be the first Christian they encounter in their life who sits and listens and sees them because I had previously taken the time to discuss and comprehend the serious thing they are crushed by, rather than maybe all the other Christians before them who added to their pain.

And your fantastic post too. Ya got me laughing again Trapped.

I'll tell this story, in a nutshell. In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale Fl a brother and I would meet once a week to study Jessie Penn-Lewis, and her teachings on the cross. That was the times when my questions about Lee were boiling up to the surface.

Eventually I left, or was booted - excommunicated -- from the church. Six months or so afterwards, that brother I was meeting with, in a separate room from wife and kids, came out that he was gay ; telling everyone, including his wife and three kids, his parents, and many in the LC, that he was gay. I was shocked.

But I already loved the brother so we stayed friends. I spent a good decade picking his brain as to what made him gay. It's wasn't a choice. I didn't know it at the time but he was reading about the cross in hopes that it would crucify his gayness away ... and that he was at that time literally beating his head against a cement wall, trying to get it out. He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them. So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

And your fantastic post too. Ya got me laughing again Trapped.

I'll tell this story, in a nutshell. In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale Fl a brother and I would meet once a week to study Jessie Penn-Lewis, and her teachings on the cross. That was the times when my questions about Lee were boiling up to the surface.

Eventually I left, or was booted - excommunicated -- from the church. Six months or so afterwards, that brother I was meeting with, in a separate room from wife and kids, came out that he was gay ; telling everyone, including his wife and three kids, his parents, and many in the LC, that he was gay. I was shocked.

But I already loved the brother so we stayed friends. I spent a good decade picking his brain as to what made him gay. It's wasn't a choice. I didn't know it at the time but he was reading about the cross in hopes that it would crucify his gayness away ... and that he was at that time literally beating his head against a cement wall, trying to get it out. He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them. So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.

Well I'm glad this sorta got back on track, so let me jump in here again and say something . . . regarding being a choice or not being a choice - I don't think anyone knows for sure how this thing works!

The things that might be listed which causes homosexuality could include:

> Choice
> Genes and/or hormones
> Some other predisposition
> Deceiving spirits
> God's plan
> Some combination of above

Are there other potential causes that could be listed?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well I'm glad this sorta got back on track, so let me jump in here again and say something . . . regarding being a choice or not being a choice - I don't think anyone knows for sure how this thing works!

The things that might be listed which causes homosexuality could include:

> Choice
> Genes and/or hormones
> Some other predisposition
> Deceiving spirits
> God's plan
> Some combination of above

Are there other potential causes that could be listed?

We'd have to ask each gay person to know that. The question remains. Are we suppose to love and accept them, or do we condemn them to hell?

[Humperdinck]

You mean love and accept them like you love and accept all the Christians that post here?::

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Humperdinck

You mean love and accept them like you love and accept all the Christians that post here?

Sure. Are you feeling unloved because I asked you who it was that but has head on the bosom of Jesus?

Or are you against loving the gays?

Please explain.

[Humperdinck]

To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; Titus 1.15

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

We'd have to ask each gay person to know that. The question remains. Are we suppose to love and accept them, or do we condemn them to hell?

Of course! That's never been a question! Love trumps all. (I still use that word in its original sense, just like "gay")

Like most all things humans discuss, our ideas and emotions get in the way sometimes . . .

[Humperdinck]

Hey awareness, I'm assuming you ask your questions with sincerity and good faith. If so, then take my answer with the same. Otherwise, maybe it's just a shoe that fits you pretty well. God bless you my child.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Humperdinck

Hey awareness, I'm assuming you ask your questions with sincerity and good faith. If so, then take my answer with the same. Otherwise, maybe it's just a shoe that fits you pretty well. God bless you my child.

Yes I do. And hope you do as well.

I think I've made position pretty clear out here. But unless I missed it, I don't think you have. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just to be clear, I'm a LGBTQ supporting heterosexual, raised in the Southern Baptist church, and a member of Lee's local church from approx. 70 to 80.

Please tell us a little about yourself, or why you prefer not to. And what is your position on the LGBTQ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them.

So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.

The same can be said of all human "propensities" which are contrary to God's laws. Whether a liar, a thief, an arsonist, a murderer, a sorcerer, an idolator, an alcoholic, a reviler, a prostitute, a drug addict, a womanizer, an adulterer, etc -- all such ones can claim that their own personal innate "propensities" were not their choice, but they were "born that way." They were merely "surviving" in a nasty world. They were only living the way God had made them.

And coming out of their many "conscience closets" made them all feel so free. It's way too hard to resist the way we are made, eh? And if God made them all the way they were, how can He ever judge any of them?

Either awareness is wrong or the Bible is wrong, God included. Can't be both. I sure hope awareness is right because I would hate to be judged for any of my "propensities." But if awareness is wrong, a whole lot of people are in for the shock of their lives.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

And your fantastic post too. Ya got me laughing again Trapped.

I'll tell this story, in a nutshell. In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale Fl a brother and I would meet once a week to study Jessie Penn-Lewis, and her teachings on the cross. That was the times when my questions about Lee were boiling up to the surface.

Eventually I left, or was booted - excommunicated -- from the church. Six months or so afterwards, that brother I was meeting with, in a separate room from wife and kids, came out that he was gay ; telling everyone, including his wife and three kids, his parents, and many in the LC, that he was gay. I was shocked.

But I already loved the brother so we stayed friends. I spent a good decade picking his brain as to what made him gay. It's wasn't a choice. I didn't know it at the time but he was reading about the cross in hopes that it would crucify his gayness away ... and that he was at that time literally beating his head against a cement wall, trying to get it out. He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them. So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.

Yeah....see....there it is. I don't see his behavior as that of someone who has a choice.

What I write here may make some people mad, I have no idea, but this is my honest handling of what has gone on in my head about this topic that I don't have firsthand experience with. I think what makes the issue so complicated is that I don't think there is one "Aha! This one thing is why a person has same-sex attractions" answer. I think there are numerous pathways to it. (I started writing this before StG jumped back in, and he has already hit on a few).

I do believe one of those pathways is trauma. And I am saying that with a much broader view in mind than just homosexuality. I am of the personal opinion that the majority of humankind has endured or encountered some level of trauma (whatever kind) somewhere in their life, and many of those people are walking around without having faced it, maybe even without having even spoken of it, and certainly not having gotten professional help for it or processed it in any way. I had this same conversation with a physical therapist one time, not thinking that he would have much input, and he immediately told me a story of the patient of a medical doctor he knew. (The PT was in the MD's office visiting him and somehow saw this play out). The patient was known as a happy guy, joyful, exuberant, hilarious, everyone loved him. But that day, the MD told this patient he needed to get a scan to check for testicular cancer.

The patient blew his top in anger. Yelling, screaming, lashing out. Furious. No one knew why. They tried to calm him down, not understanding his reaction. Eventually, it came out that he had been sexually abused as a young kid, and hid it. He didn't want anyone touching anything down there. But if you didn't know that, you would think, "this guy is mentally unstable. One minute happy, the other minute furious, for no apparent reason. He has anger issues, etc...."

Nope. He had trauma that still haunted him.

And I honestly think most people have experiences in their life that cause their eyes to get haunted and make them turn inward to protect the pain still inside them if you try to get them to talk about it. And our complicated beings use some very difficult coping mechanisms sometimes to deal with it on our behalf.

One doctor/psych friend of mine told me about a patient who had been verbally and emotionally abused by a close partner for several years without a way out from the abuse. Anyone she went to turned a deaf ear and she couldn't get help from anyone. Finally once she was able to break free and the abuse was over, the coping mechanism the welled up to try to process and work through her feelings of helplessness was to .... sorry to be graphic here ... act out fantasy rape scenarios where she was also exactly that - helpless. But it wasn't for pleasure; it was a coping mechanism that just came out from within her. She was apparently horrified at what she did, but it was a physical manifestation of an inward feeling she couldn't handle having. The doctor said it provided her some relief because for that period of time her outward experience matched her inward feeling about what had happened that she hadn't yet been able to move on from.

Anyway, all that to say, I think some people were abused and/or traumatized, and their body deals with it via same-sex attractions.

But then you have people who say they knew at 3-4 years old. They had an awareness at a very early age. They freely say they had a wonderful childhood and there wasn't anything specific that would have affected their attractions. What's going on there? Is it the set of genes SerenityLives spoke about? Is it the presence of certain hormones in the womb? I see no reason to discount these experiences of people, and believe for some there is an "inborn" reason.

I know in some LC meetings they have mentioned demon possession or evil spirit or something like that as an explanation. This probably does account for a very minor % but I see no real reason to claim that homosexuals have a higher rate of demonic susceptibility than any other member of the human race. In other words, whatever % of people out there who are demonically influenced in some way is probably the same % whether gay or straight, so I don't think that's an explanation that gets us very far.

So with traumatized people, get help for the root trauma. For demons, pray to cast them out.

But regarding the "inborn" reason. This is the hardest. And what it seems to boil down to is fairness. And I don't mean this glibly. I mean this knowing that it is an anguished cry from deep within that Satan has twisted around to make you think that it is a value statement on you as a person. "It's not fair that I have these feelings I don't want to have. It's not okay to call it abnormal and make me feel like I'm abnormal. It's not fair I get cheated of xyz experience other people have."

I can understand the emotions and the pain behind those things, because it's not isolated to homosexuals only. Someone born with cerebral palsy or spina bifida or Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or no arms and legs can say the same thing. Someone who has a promising athletic career in front of them who gets sideswiped by a drunk and ends up a quadriplegic paralytic can say the same thing. Someone who gets lung cancer at age 23 and dies can say the same thing.

"Why me?"

It's not fair I was born this way. It's not fair I didn't live long enough to get married. It's not fair my life was cut short prematurely. It's not fair my spine is irreparably crooked and walking causes me excruciating pain. It's not fair you get to run and jump and catch a ball, and I can't because I was born without arms or legs to do those things. It's not fair I can't feel anything from the neck down and will never know the pleasures of sex.

It's not fair I have same-sex attractions I don't want to have.

But those things aren't normal. Cerebral palsy isn't the normal condition of a human being. Spina bifida isn't the normal condition of a human being. Paralyzed from the neck down isn't the normal state of a person. But it is strange to me to have a problem with calling something that isn't normal "abnormal". If someone is born that way, or something happens TO a person outside of their control, it is certainly not a judgment on who they are as a person. We can say someone suffering from cerebral palsy, who was born with it, was born abnormally, and it's a truth that has nothing to do with the value of their person. They did nothing to have the condition, so why would we think less of them in any way, rather than have compassion on their situation? What it means is they are suffering in a certain way, that's all. It doesn't determine their worth in any way. And same-sex attractions, to me, can be described this way too. I don't think it's a "normal" state of affairs. I do think you can be born with it. I don't think it is a statement on your worth and value as a person. And no, I don't think it's fair. And this is why there should be compassion. Because it's a suffering, just like many others are born suffering in other ways. It's just very, very personal kind of suffering.

And just as being born with the conditions I provided as an example isn't a sin, so being born with same-sex attractions isn't a sin either. It's what you do with them that determines whether you step into sin.

I may be wrong here, but I don't think God judges someone for how He makes them. He's a righteous judge. He's the Holy One. That wouldn't be a righteous judgement. One of the apologists says it this way: "at the judgment seat no one will think they got an unfair judgment". God is a just God. I think, in contrast, He judges someone for what they do with how they were made. This is why I tried to delineate on the previous deleted thread between simply having same-sex attractions, and actually acting on them.

Am I saying any of this is easy for those dealing with them? Not on your life. I understand when people say "I felt so free" once they came out or gave in. It makes sense, because it would certainly feel free to stop fighting distressing internal things. There is definitely a freedom when anyone who has been fighting nonstop for a long time finally decides to stop fighting. To me it's the same type of thing going on internally inside someone fighting depression. At a certain point they can't fight anymore, it's too much, too hopeless, nothing's changing.....and so they give up and commit suicide to escape the torment. And there is a freedom there; a freedom from the struggle and the fight and the pain. Same thing with same-sex attractions.

The pain we are talking about is immense. The reaction of many people to someone with same-sex attractions usually increases their pain unbearably. This is why there has to be compassion.

[SerenityLives]

Hello UntoHim are you the moderator or is Awareness?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

Hello UntoHim are you the moderator or is Awareness?

I'm the sole moderator/administrator. Awareness is no longer the official moderator, but he still can function as a moderator by leading the discussions, which he has done for years, and is very good at it.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

I just want to add something I've wanted to say, that is hopefully clarifying. The whole mess mankind is in, is because of his choosing something that wasn't good for the race. And now the error is being fully manifested in the cesspool of the flesh and fleshly works. Things have gone awry from God's original purpose. This includes a whole litany of things known as the fruits of the flesh.

So when we talk about "sin," it is just to say it is something off the mark from what God intended and from what glorifies Him. If I get drunk, that harms my body and is off the mark. If I get angry and yell foul things at my wife, that is hurtful and off the mark. If I covet and lust after another's wife, that's off the mark. This is just the flesh, and it can't please God. So when someone inferred that homosexuality is an abomination - it could be said that everything about the flesh is an abomination to God! It is all against Him and what's in it makes enemies to God out of His human creation.

Is there a special place in hell for homosexuals & LGBTQ+? No, I don't think so. The only demarcation to get out will be whether someone has received God's free gift in Christ. Those without Christ, whether they practice homosexuality or whatever (even "good" things), have no hope of escape. All works of the flesh are all the same in that respect.

He who has began a good work in us is faithful and will perfect it! The flesh will fall away and it's works burned up. Hallelujah!

Personally, I count all forms of LGBTQ+ as being off the mark of God's original intention, just like other manifestations of the sins of the flesh. It's all simply worthy of being crucified in Christ. Can I try and justify that I'm raging at my wife over something silly or try and justify some other manifestation of sin? Sure. I can try. But it's still an error, and I need to recognize through these experiences of the flesh that I need Jesus to complete His good work in me!

I think some on this thread are trying to justify what they are doing in any way they can, and even try and bring scripture to make that justification. So what I see is we can try to justify all sorts of things and make them right in our own eyes - but that doesn't mean it's God's truth.

And for the record, least someone claim I am hating, I really do love all of you in Christ, as members of His body. Therefore the old cliché of "Hate the sin, but love the sinner" isn't far off (except that technically, I don't think we are sinners any more - we are saints who sometimes still sin). I hate the sin in my own life too, brothers & sisters! In that respect, no one of us has the market cornered when it comes to the flesh - we've all got it and it's all rotten, being corrupted, and won't get better. It will only get worse and worse as we see His day approaching quickly!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm the sole moderator/administrator. Awareness is no longer the official moderator, but he still can function as a moderator by leading the discussions, which he has done for years, and is very good at it.
-

Why thanks bro Untohim. You carry to much on your shoulders. Kudos for doing it.

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yeah....see....there it is. I don't see his behavior as that of someone who has a choice.

What I write here may make some people mad, I have no idea, but this is my honest handling of what has gone on in my head about this topic that I don't have firsthand experience with. I think what makes the issue so complicated is that I don't think there is one "Aha! This one thing is why a person has same-sex attractions" answer. I think there are numerous pathways to it. (I started writing this before StG jumped back in, and he has already hit on a few).

I do believe one of those pathways is trauma. And I am saying that with a much broader view in mind than just homosexuality. I am of the personal opinion that the majority of humankind has endured or encountered some level of trauma (whatever kind) somewhere in their life, and many of those people are walking around without having faced it, maybe even without having even spoken of it, and certainly not having gotten professional help for it or processed it in any way. I had this same conversation with a physical therapist one time, not thinking that he would have much input, and he immediately told me a story of the patient of a medical doctor he knew. (The PT was in the MD's office visiting him and somehow saw this play out). The patient was known as a happy guy, joyful, exuberant, hilarious, everyone loved him. But that day, the MD told this patient he needed to get a scan to check for testicular cancer.

The patient blew his top in anger. Yelling, screaming, lashing out. Furious. No one knew why. They tried to calm him down, not understanding his reaction. Eventually, it came out that he had been sexually abused as a young kid, and hid it. He didn't want anyone touching anything down there. But if you didn't know that, you would think, "this guy is mentally unstable. One minute happy, the other minute furious, for no apparent reason. He has anger issues, etc...."

Nope. He had trauma that still haunted him.

And I honestly think most people have experiences in their life that cause their eyes to get haunted and make them turn inward to protect the pain still inside them if you try to get them to talk about it. And our complicated beings use some very difficult coping mechanisms sometimes to deal with it on our behalf.

One doctor/psych friend of mine told me about a patient who had been verbally and emotionally abused by a close partner for several years without a way out from the abuse. Anyone she went to turned a deaf ear and she couldn't get help from anyone. Finally once she was able to break free and the abuse was over, the coping mechanism the welled up to try to process and work through her feelings of helplessness was to .... sorry to be graphic here ... act out fantasy rape scenarios where she was also exactly that - helpless. But it wasn't for pleasure; it was a coping mechanism that just came out from within her. She was apparently horrified at what she did, but it was a physical manifestation of an inward feeling she couldn't handle having. The doctor said it provided her some relief because for that period of time her outward experience matched her inward feeling about what had happened that she hadn't yet been able to move on from.

Anyway, all that to say, I think some people were abused and/or traumatized, and their body deals with it via same-sex attractions.

But then you have people who say they knew at 3-4 years old. They had an awareness at a very early age. They freely say they had a wonderful childhood and there wasn't anything specific that would have affected their attractions. What's going on there? Is it the set of genes SerenityLives spoke about? Is it the presence of certain hormones in the womb? I see no reason to discount these experiences of people, and believe for some there is an "inborn" reason.

I know in some LC meetings they have mentioned demon possession or evil spirit or something like that as an explanation. This probably does account for a very minor % but I see no real reason to claim that homosexuals have a higher rate of demonic susceptibility than any other member of the human race. In other words, whatever % of people out there who are demonically influenced in some way is probably the same % whether gay or straight, so I don't think that's an explanation that gets us very far.

So with traumatized people, get help for the root trauma. For demons, pray to cast them out.

But regarding the "inborn" reason. This is the hardest. And what it seems to boil down to is fairness. And I don't mean this glibly. I mean this knowing that it is an anguished cry from deep within that Satan has twisted around to make you think that it is a value statement on you as a person. "It's not fair that I have these feelings I don't want to have. It's not okay to call it abnormal and make me feel like I'm abnormal. It's not fair I get cheated of xyz experience other people have."

I can understand the emotions and the pain behind those things, because it's not isolated to homosexuals only. Someone born with cerebral palsy or spina bifida or Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or no arms and legs can say the same thing. Someone who has a promising athletic career in front of them who gets sideswiped by a drunk and ends up a quadriplegic paralytic can say the same thing. Someone who gets lung cancer at age 23 and dies can say the same thing.

"Why me?"

It's not fair I was born this way. It's not fair I didn't live long enough to get married. It's not fair my life was cut short prematurely. It's not fair my spine is irreparably crooked and walking causes me excruciating pain. It's not fair you get to run and jump and catch a ball, and I can't because I was born without arms or legs to do those things. It's not fair I can't feel anything from the neck down and will never know the pleasures of sex.

It's not fair I have same-sex attractions I don't want to have.

But those things aren't normal. Cerebral palsy isn't the normal condition of a human being. Spina bifida isn't the normal condition of a human being. Paralyzed from the neck down isn't the normal state of a person. But it is strange to me to have a problem with calling something that isn't normal "abnormal". If someone is born that way, or something happens TO a person outside of their control, it is certainly not a judgment on who they are as a person. We can say someone suffering from cerebral palsy, who was born with it, was born abnormally, and it's a truth that has nothing to do with the value of their person. They did nothing to have the condition, so why would we think less of them in any way, rather than have compassion on their situation? What it means is they are suffering in a certain way, that's all. It doesn't determine their worth in any way. And same-sex attractions, to me, can be described this way too. I don't think it's a "normal" state of affairs. I do think you can be born with it. I don't think it is a statement on your worth and value as a person. And no, I don't think it's fair. And this is why there should be compassion. Because it's a suffering, just like many others are born suffering in other ways. It's just very, very personal kind of suffering.

And just as being born with the conditions I provided as an example isn't a sin, so being born with same-sex attractions isn't a sin either. It's what you do with them that determines whether you step into sin.

I may be wrong here, but I don't think God judges someone for how He makes them. He's a righteous judge. He's the Holy One. That wouldn't be a righteous judgement. One of the apologists says it this way: "at the judgment seat no one will think they got an unfair judgment". God is a just God. I think, in contrast, He judges someone for what they do with how they were made. This is why I tried to delineate on the previous deleted thread between simply having same-sex attractions, and actually acting on them.

Am I saying any of this is easy for those dealing with them? Not on your life. I understand when people say "I felt so free" once they came out or gave in. It makes sense, because it would certainly feel free to stop fighting distressing internal things. There is definitely a freedom when anyone who has been fighting nonstop for a long time finally decides to stop fighting. To me it's the same type of thing going on internally inside someone fighting depression. At a certain point they can't fight anymore, it's too much, too hopeless, nothing's changing.....and so they give up and commit suicide to escape the torment. And there is a freedom there; a freedom from the struggle and the fight and the pain. Same thing with same-sex attractions.

The pain we are talking about is immense. The reaction of many people to someone with same-sex attractions usually increases their pain unbearably. This is why there has to be compassion.

wanted to say a little somthing here. Thank you Trapped for your well thought out post. First, I would like to say that based on my personal experience, coming out was not giving in. In fact it was the opposite, it was going on. I never experienced any trauma while growing up but I can tell you that I am still fighting to this day after I came out. In fact I experienced trauma AFTER i came out, based on prejudices that others have. Would anyone be stupid enough to choose a life where they are rejected and have to fight contantly for who they are? Its like blacks with systemic racism. It’s not their fault. Think about it another way, if heterosexuals were told to not give in to their desires, would they?

I think the main thing is how do we define norms in our society? To say that homosexuality is not normal is based on religious views. Based on my sociology and psychology classes, norms are based on current societal constucts. Societal constructs have been changing since the beginning of time. Just because something is rare, doesnt make it abnormal. Just like all the other physical ailments and hereditary diseases you pointed out. But comparing homosexuality as a disease, it’s misleading.

Now an interesting tidbit, is why would God create transgender clownfish if not to show us that it’s part of their developmental stages (when the highest ranking female clownfish dies, the next one, if it’s male, turns into a female in order to have a good family and offspring? I know that Chritians think plants and animals are below us and we shouldnt rely on them for our morality (and I agree with chimpanzees murdering other chimpanzees and such) but among clownfish, this is normal and healthy behavior.

I like that you mentioned compassion. My sexuality has taught me many things, the main thing it has brought me is greater compassion for those in need and different. Just like Jesus who was both divine and human, he was able to empathize more despite being rejected. If you look at Joseph in the Old Testament, he was rejected too. And yet he grew with such maturity and eventually was able to do so many things. Thats what gives me hope from the Bible, not the verses about how homosexuality is wrong (if doesnt say so explicitly), but the stories of humanity it has. As awareness says, the Bible is also a very human book.

Sorry it took a while Trapped for me to get back to you. For some reason, whenever I type very long responses, it logs out on me

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The same can be said of all human "propensities" which are contrary to God's laws. Whether a liar, a thief, an arsonist, a murderer, a sorcerer, an idolator, an alcoholic, a reviler, a prostitute, a drug addict, a womanizer, an adulterer, etc -- all such ones can claim that their own personal innate "propensities" were not their choice, but they were "born that way." They were merely "surviving" in a nasty world. They were only living the way God had made them.

And coming out of their many "conscience closets" made them all feel so free. It's way too hard to resist the way we are made, eh? And if God made them all the way they were, how can He ever judge any of them?

Either awareness is wrong or the Bible is wrong, God included. Can't be both. I sure hope awareness is right because I would hate to be judged for any of my "propensities." But if awareness is wrong, a whole lot of people are in for the shock of their lives.

You've already announced out here that the Biblical way is the only right way.

So it's not surprising that you consider homosexuality a choice.

God is my witness, it's not.

Thanks for expressing your opinion. You're a Peach ...