Modalism

UntoHim · 10-24-2020, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So if you counted the various names that are in those verses it looks like there are 3 Persons referred to, right?

I already answered this question. All the verses you posted are referring to the one and only Holy Spirit. I think I'll pull a Witness Lee on you here and return the question back to you: "How many Holy Spirit's are there?"

When Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of Man", and Paul refers to him as "the Son of his love" and "the Son of God who loved me", is the Bible talking about 3 different persons?

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Are you saying that actually only the HS is in us, and merely representing the other two (Father & Son)?

When Jesus Christ said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) was he saying that he was literally God the Father standing there in front of Phillip? If that was so, then why did did he tell the disciples in the very same chapter: "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"?"(vr 28) To say that the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and the Son is perfectly biblical. Yes, there are deeper and fully understandings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but at the very least, the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and Son.

I remember singing this Hymn, written by Margaret Jenkins Harris, quite frequently in the Local Church:

Glory, glory to the Father!
Glory, glory to the Son!
Glory, glory to the Spirit!
Glory to the Three in One!

Let us praise Him! Let us praise Him!
Praise our God, the Three in One!
Give Him glory; give Him glory!
Wondrous things for us our God hath done.

Praise the Father who has purposed!
Praise the Son who all has done!
Praise the Spirit who transmitteth!
Praise the Three who work as one!

Jesus Christ used more than just one form of speaking. Sometimes he obviously was to be taken literally - "Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live". Yet he also used a number of other literary forms - He used parables. He used sarcasm. He used exaggeration. Any serious student of the Bible should be familiar with all the different genres and literary forms that the the Bible was written in.
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Sons to Glory! · 10-24-2020, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I already answered this question. All the verses you posted are referring to the one and only Holy Spirit. I think I'll pull a Witness Lee on you here and return the question back to you: "How many Holy Spirit's are there?"

When Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of Man", and Paul refers to him as "the Son of his love" and "the Son of God who loved me", is the Bible talking about 3 different persons?

When Jesus Christ said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) was he saying that he was literally God the Father standing there in front of Phillip? If that was so, then why did did he tell the disciples in the very same chapter: "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"?"(vr 28) To say that the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and the Son is perfectly biblical. Yes, there are deeper and fully understandings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but at the very least, the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and Son.

I remember singing this Hymn, written by Margaret Jenkins Harris, quite frequently in the Local Church:

Glory, glory to the Father!
Glory, glory to the Son!
Glory, glory to the Spirit!
Glory to the Three in One!

Let us praise Him! Let us praise Him!
Praise our God, the Three in One!
Give Him glory; give Him glory!
Wondrous things for us our God hath done.

Praise the Father who has purposed!
Praise the Son who all has done!
Praise the Spirit who transmitteth!
Praise the Three who work as one!

Jesus Christ used more than just one form of speaking. Sometimes he obviously was to be taken literally - "Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live". Yet he also used a number of other literary forms - He used parables. He used sarcasm. He used exaggeration. Any serious student of the Bible should be familiar with all the different genres and literary forms that the the Bible was written in.
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That song comes to me still too! Sometimes I sing it "Praise our God the 1 in 3!"

Regarding John chapter 14 Ima gonna use that word again . . . here it is . . . wait for it . . . MYSTERY!

So you can take Paul's writings in Romans 8 any way you want - that's your prerogative. But I take them at face value. Therefore according to scripture there we can ask: Is Christ in us? Yes! Is the Spirit in us? Yes! Is the Father (He who raised Christ from the dead) in us? Yes!

As Jesus prayed in John 17 (paraphrased), "That they all may be one, as you Father are in Me and I in them, that they may also be one in Us - one big happy family." We can ask then, who is in who? Wonderful! But if you want to think that's just flowery, figurative speech, then again, that's your prerogative!

UntoHim · 10-25-2020, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

But if you want to think that's just flowery, figurative speech, then again, that's your prerogative!

My brother Son to Glory! do you really want to have some serious dialogue, or do you want to play games and be cute? If you don't want to be called a "Lee-ite", then could you please stop insulting my intelligence like Witness Lee did to those who questioned his teachings? What gave you the impression that I take the Word of God as flowery, figurative speech? Let's have some serious, sincere discussions. Modalism is a serious error. For hundreds upon hundreds of years there has been a clear understanding of the delineation between the orthodox view/understanding of the Trinity. Orthodoxy is not a moving target...or at least it shouldn't be.

I fully understand that you do not subscribe to the traditional, orthodox teachings regarding the Trinity. You obviously consider Witness Lee's teachings as more Biblical than the traditional, orthodox teachings. No problem! This is a valid and fair position around these parts! After all, we are on LocalChurchDiscussions!

I have answered your valid and fair questions and concerns in sincerity and good faith. Can I please ask the same of you?

Question one: When Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of Man", and Paul refers to him as "the Son of his love" and "the Son of God who loved me", is the Bible talking about 3 different persons? Or are these three different titles to the same person?

Question two: When Jesus Christ said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) was he saying that he was literally God the Father standing there in front of Phillip? If that was so, then why did did he tell the disciples in the very same chapter: "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"?

Question three: (put in the form of a statement) To say that the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and the Son is perfectly biblical. Yes, there are deeper and fully understandings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but at the very least, the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and Son.

These questions are not merely rhetorical or hypothetical. They are my sincere effort to "come and reason together". I am asking these questions in good faith, and not as a hammer or an implication that your answers are not going to be valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Therefore according to scripture there we can ask: Is Christ in us? Yes! Is the Spirit in us? Yes! Is the Father (He who raised Christ from the dead) in us? Yes!

I think I have answered this contention. But I will be more than happy to answer/clarify further after you have taken the time to answer the three questions above. Thanks.
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Sons to Glory! · 10-25-2020, 09:26 AM

Well, sorry - that was not really meant to ruffle your feathers so much! I didn't realize you were that sensitive.
(I actually thought you had developed more of a callused approach to me . . .)

But all that aside, see my responses below to your three substantive questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

My brother Son to Glory! do you really want to have some serious dialogue, or do you want to play games and be cute? If you don't want to be called a "Lee-ite", then could you please stop insulting my intelligence like Witness Lee did to those who questioned his teachings? What gave you the impression that I take the Word of God as flowery, figurative speech? Let's have some serious, sincere discussions. Modalism is a serious error. For hundreds upon hundreds of years there has been a clear understanding of the delineation between the orthodox view/understanding of the Trinity. Orthodoxy is not a moving target...or at least it shouldn't be.

I fully understand that you do not subscribe to the traditional, orthodox teachings regarding the Trinity. You obviously consider Witness Lee's teachings as more Biblical than the traditional, orthodox teachings. No problem! This is a valid and fair position around these parts! After all, we are on LocalChurchDiscussions!

I have answered your valid and fair questions and concerns in sincerity and good faith. Can I please ask the same of you?

Question one: When Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of Man", and Paul refers to him as "the Son of his love" and "the Son of God who loved me", is the Bible talking about 3 different persons? Or are these three different titles to the same person? Same

Question two: When Jesus Christ said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) was he saying that he was literally God the Father standing there in front of Phillip? If that was so, then why did did he tell the disciples in the very same chapter: "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"? Same as when it says Christ is in us, yet also on the throne. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself."

Question three: (put in the form of a statement) To say that the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and the Son is perfectly biblical. Yes, there are deeper and fuller understandings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but at the very least, the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and Son. Agreed. Representation is one aspect, but as you point out there's a deeper, organic aspect too, and this is the real significance - it's this deeper, intrinsic aspect that's key, right? It's like saying my son looks like me. Well of course, but why? Because he shares my DNA.

These questions are not merely rhetorical or hypothetical. They are my sincere effort to "come and reason together". I am asking these questions in good faith, and not as a hammer or an implication that your answers are not going to be valid. Great!

I think I have answered this contention. But I will be more than happy to answer/clarify further after you have taken the time to answer the three questions above. Thanks.
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Now off to have a good time enjoying Christ in us the hope of glory, with my local ekklesia, as I hope you are with some too!

Sons to Glory! · 11-01-2020, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I think I have answered this contention. But I will be more than happy to answer/clarify further after you have taken the time to answer the three questions above. Thanks.
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UntoHim - I responded in my post below a week ago - did you miss my response or are you still thinking about it, or maybe have other things to do (which is certainly understandable)?

UntoHim · 11-02-2020, 09:13 AM

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Question one: When Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of Man", and Paul refers to him as "the Son of his love" and "the Son of God who loved me", is the Bible talking about 3 different persons? Or are these three different titles to the same person?

StG!: Same

Ok, then why is it that you don't apply the very same logic to the various titles of the Holy Spirit given in your post #206? (the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, etc)

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Question two: When Jesus Christ said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father" (John 14:9) was he saying that he was literally God the Father standing there in front of Phillip? If that was so, then why did did he tell the disciples in the very same chapter: "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"?

StG!: Same as when it says Christ is in us, yet also on the throne. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself."

Interesting answer! But there is a logical/theological disconnect in your answer again. My question was addressing the relationship of the Father and the Son, (two individuals) but your answer addresses the omnipresence of Christ (one individual) Although there is an intrinsic, essential dynamic of oneness within the Godhead (cf: I am in the Father and the Father is in me), this dynamic does not confuse, much less obliterate, the relationship between the Father and the Son. A good illustration would be found in John 8: "Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me." (vrs 16-18)

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Question three:.(put in the form of a statement) To say that the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and the Son is perfectly biblical. Yes, there are deeper and fuller understandings of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but at the very least, the Holy Spirit is representing the Father and Son.

StG!: Agreed. Representation is one aspect, but as you point out there's a deeper, organic aspect too, and this is the real significance - it's this deeper, intrinsic aspect that's key, right? It's like saying my son looks like me. Well of course, but why? Because he shares my DNA.

I disagree that one "aspect" of the Holy Spirit's relationship with the Father and the Son, and indeed with us as believers, has any more significance than the other. For example, the judicial/legal aspect of our "adoption as sons" (Gal 4:5) and "the Spirit of adoption as sons" (Rom 8:15) and "predestined us for adoption to himself as sons" (Eph 1:5) is just as significant as the "organic" aspect in John 14:19 "Because I live, you also will live". and 1 Pet 1:4 "you may become partakers of the divine nature". Witness Lee created a false dichotomy of sorts with his emphasis of the "organic" relationship over the judicial/legal aspect. As a matter of fact, Lee and his followers have implied that his teachings, and his particular emphasis of one aspect over the over other, was "recovered, high peak truth". It should go without saying by now, but I'm here to tell you that Lee's teachings, and Lee's emphases, are neither recovered truth nor high peak. In the end, my dear friend Sons to Glory!, I believe that we will find that the "many sons" will have been "brought to glory" because of, and through, the judicial AND organic aspects. All man-made aspects, emphases, significances, terms, creeds and doctrines will fade away in abject insignificance and utter worthlessness "compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us"(Rom 8:18)
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Sons to Glory! · 11-10-2020, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[In the end, my dear friend Sons to Glory!, I believe that we will find that the "many sons" will have been "brought to glory" because of, and through, the judicial AND organic aspects.[/COLOR] All man-made aspects, emphases, significances, terms, creeds and doctrines will fade away in abject insignificance and utter worthlessness "compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us"(Rom 8:18)
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Thanks for your thoughtful response on this entire reply! I'm chewing on your first two points (they were good ones I think), but did want to say that I fully agree that the last point is an "AND," that is, both aspects - judicial & organic - are certainly there.