Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Alternative Views - Click Here to Start New Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2020, 10:22 AM   #1
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Paul makes a complete distinction between one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Look at Paul’s introduction in Chapter one, as in all his letters. Very plain distinction between One God, the Father and one Lord Jesus the Christ.

Throughout all of 1 Cor this is the pattern, such as the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.
Not true at all. And you are guilty of neglecting the context in v. 8.5.

There is no "complete distinction" in Paul's writing. That is your fabrication.

Look at Titus 2.10-14, "Not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Who is our Savior? God Himself.

What is our blessed hope? The return of our God and Savior.

Who will appear in glory? Jesus Christ, our great God and Savior.

Who has redeemed us? Our great God and Savior Jesus.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 01:20 PM   #2
Boxjobox
Moderated Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Not true at all. And you are guilty of neglecting the context in v. 8.5.

There is no "complete distinction" in Paul's writing. That is your fabrication.
Ohio, I can’t respond to something I don’t understand. What is out of context? Unbelieving ( and apparently some believing Corinthians) had many gods and many lords. Paul says to us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Paul continuously preaches and teaches that God made Jesus Lord. This shouldn’t be a mystery or a point of contention, but should be our profession.

I realize there is a problem accepting that both Paul and Jesus tell us there is only one true God, the Father. It’s not what is professed in Christiandom today. I don’t hear you, or others talking in terms of “the God of our Lord Jesus. That should also be our vocabulary.

What am I taking out of context?

1Cor 8 4Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; 6yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 04:35 PM   #3
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Ohio, I can’t respond to something I don’t understand. What is out of context? Unbelieving ( and apparently some believing Corinthians) had many gods and many lords. Paul says to us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Paul continuously preaches and teaches that God made Jesus Lord. This shouldn’t be a mystery or a point of contention, but should be our profession.

I realize there is a problem accepting that both Paul and Jesus tell us there is only one true God, the Father. It’s not what is professed in Christiandom today. I don’t hear you, or others talking in terms of “the God of our Lord Jesus. That should also be our vocabulary.

What am I taking out of context?
Ok, I'll spell it out. The idolatrous city of Corinth had much daily talk about their many gods and many lords. These were all unseen gods and lords, to be worshiped by the pagans with their priests, who offered sacrifices to them. In fact all foods were sacrificed to these gods and lords. Many of these had statues too. Many of the Corinthians had their own favorite god and lord. This pagan culture, with these pagan gods and lords, with these pagan sacrifices and practices were all counterfeits of the real "thing," the reality who is Christ, worshiped by the saints.

Paul used this as background to compare. He provided a parallel and a contrast. To us there is one God. To us there is one Lord. Paul's emphasis here was on "one." One God. One Lord. Then he added some description. He could have called God the Creator, like he did in Athens. He could have called Jesus the promised Messiah, like he usually did with a Jewish audience. He could have said, "Lord of lords and God of gods."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 10:29 PM   #4
Boxjobox
Moderated Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Ok, I'll spell it out. The idolatrous city of Corinth had much daily talk about their many gods and many lords. These were all unseen gods and lords, to be worshiped by the pagans with their priests, who offered sacrifices to them. In fact all foods were sacrificed to these gods and lords. Many of these had statues too. Many of the Corinthians had their own favorite god and lord. This pagan culture, with these pagan gods and lords, with these pagan sacrifices and practices were all counterfeits of the real "thing," the reality who is Christ, worshiped by the saints.

Paul used this as background to compare. He provided a parallel and a contrast. To us there is one God. To us there is one Lord. Paul's emphasis here was on "one." One God. One Lord. Then he added some description. He could have called God the Creator, like he did in Athens. He could have called Jesus the promised Messiah, like he usually did with a Jewish audience. He could have said, "Lord of lords and God of gods."
Ohio, if you would, check every letter Paul wrote, he starts out basically with Grace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. This is Paul’s thinking, understanding, that he conveys in every one of his letters.
Let’s look at 1Cor1
3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ 4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus; 5that in everything ye were enriched in him, in all utterance and all knowledge; 6even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; 8who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

And 2cor 1 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; 4who comforteth us in all our affliction, that we may be able to comfort them that are in any affliction, through the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

I think by reading these two sections you can see God is God and Christ is Christ. When Paul says One God, the Father he means one God, the Father. When he says one lord, he says to us, that one Lord is Jesus.

Look what Peter and the 11 preached as the gospel Acts 2 29Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; 31he foreseeing this'spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

34For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. 36Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

Jesus is Lord because God gave him that position.
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 10:42 PM   #5
Boxjobox
Moderated Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post

Look at Titus 2.10-14, "Not pilfering, but showing all good faith so that they will adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."
We have talked about this before- the meaning changes depending on where the translators put commas, which are not in Greek. the version you give puts a comma after God and savior. Many put a comma after God: our God , and savior Jesus Christ. This is not a good verse to try to promote your view, in that meaning is not sufficiently clear.

Concerning our hope in relation to this what Paul says, you may want to read 1Peter chapter one.
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 06:11 AM   #6
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
We have talked about this before- the meaning changes depending on where the translators put commas, which are not in Greek. the version you give puts a comma after God and savior. Many put a comma after God: our God , and savior Jesus Christ. This is not a good verse to try to promote your view, in that meaning is not sufficiently clear.

Concerning our hope in relation to this what Paul says, you may want to read 1Peter chapter one.
No amount of commas in the world can save your heresy. Read my post again.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 08:04 AM   #7
Boxjobox
Moderated Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No amount of commas in the world can save your heresy. Read my post again.
The reward from Jesus my Lord at his return from his God(and my God) to those who faithfully keep his word. This is my hope and desire. I’m so glad that Jesus has such a heart for us heretics! Not a bad reward, hey. And what do you see our Lord Jesus offering those of you that live in your world of belief? May God our Savior and Jesus our Lord be merciful to us all on that day!

I know thy works (behold, I have set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. 9Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. 12He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 02:14 PM   #8
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
No amount of commas in the world can save your heresy. Read my post again.
And to think dyed in the wool Bible believers can't admit that the originals didn't have any grammar, or, for that matter, no chapters and verses ... leaving it to the discretion of the translators to put it together, so that it makes sense.

Consequently, arguing over commas is folly.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
There's a serpent in every paradise.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 05:06 PM   #9
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
And to think dyed in the wool Bible believers can't admit that the originals didn't have any grammar, or, for that matter, no chapters and verses ... leaving it to the discretion of the translators to put it together, so that it makes sense.

Consequently, arguing over commas is folly.
Go read the verses. With commas and without. With grammar and without. With chapters and verses and without.

But just wait a minute ... you don't believe any of the scripture because we don't have the originals.

So you tell me what is folly.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 07:10 PM   #10
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,064
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
But just wait a minute ... you don't believe any of the scripture because we don't have the originals.
Thanks. I didn't know I don't believe any of the scriptures. I'll take a closer look.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
There's a serpent in every paradise.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 07:38 PM   #11
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Thanks. I didn't know I don't believe any of the scriptures. I'll take a closer look.
That's what you have been telling us for years. But glad to hear you will take a closer look!
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2020, 09:13 AM   #12
Boxjobox
Moderated Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 829
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Go read the verses. With commas and without. With grammar and without. With chapters and verses and without.

But just wait a minute ... you don't believe any of the scripture because we don't have the originals.

So you tell me what is folly.
This is modalism in action! The commas are not, then are, then move- why it’s nothing less than a triune manuscript! You have a source, a creation, and an acting force- you might even call it a processed, triune manuscript.
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2020, 12:20 PM   #13
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
Default Re: Modalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
This is modalism in action! The commas are not, then are, then move- why it’s nothing less than a triune manuscript! You have a source, a creation, and an acting force- you might even call it a processed, triune manuscript.
Makes no sense. Care to add some intelligence and rewrite this?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:34 AM.


3.8.9