Boxjobox on modalism

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is modalism in action! The commas are not, then are, then move- why it’s nothing less than a triune manuscript! You have a source, a creation, and an acting force- you might even call it a processed, triune manuscript.

I get it. We can play loosey-goosey with the commas, to make it say what we want. Modalism, and Processed T God, is the same slippery kind of thing.

I like 'em all. Even the trinity. But I've been known to entertain plenty of non-scriptural things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I get it. We can play loosey-goosey with the commas, to make it say what we want. Modalism, and Processed T God, is the same slippery kind of thing.

I like 'em all. Even the trinity. But I've been known to entertain plenty of non-scriptural things.

Denying the deity of our Savior over a comma. Who would actually do that for a living?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Denying the deity of our Savior over a comma. Who would actually do that for a living?

That's a sweet sentiment. But like I said a day or so ago : I can't handle one Yahweh, much less two. And then there's a third Yahweh in the Revelation, that's a Jesus turned pourer outer of bowls of wrath.

I think I'll stick with just one Yahweh, thank you. In that case modalism looks good. At least there's only one at a time.

Lee wasn't a modalist. Not unless it's just the Jesus is the Father, Spirit, and Jesus mode.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Denying the deity of our Savior over a comma. Who would actually do that for a living?

There is God our Savior and then there is our Lord and Savior the man Christ Jesus, through whom God our Savior worked to bring us His salvation

Titus 3 3For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, 5not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works.

Paul introduces both to Titus in his opening Titus 1 1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; 3but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Paul is very consistent God is God and Jesus is The Christ. Do you really think, Ohio, that Paul they’ll Timothy that there is One God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, and then tells Titus there are two Gods? Does he tell the Corinthians there is one God, the Father, and then skip to another place and tell them Jesus is God? That would be total confusion.

My little comma post was obvious sarcasm: it shows how I feel about the attempts to make a three headed appear god out of scripture and then do obeisance to that “ discovery”. People DO make money promoting the trinity thing and have really, by intimidation held captive the masses to that unscriptural premise. “ If you don’t believe Jesus is God, your an heretic and be damned”. All’s the while, Jesus and Paul tell us of one True God, the Father. As I pointed out, Jesus offers a reward to those like me that don’t distort the truth. For your crowd, Ohio, I see more of a warning “ come out of her my people”. But that’s just what I read in the scripture, you seem to find a lot of verses that say, aaahhh I mean “ indicate” Jesus is God. I see the narrative of the scripture lifting up God our Father and Jesus the Christ rewarded with the position God has given him. You see, apparently two, maybe three gods. Can you tell me where you see Jesus worshipped as God in the heavenly realm? I see Jesus on the right hand of God displayed in the scripture quite a bit, but I don’t see scripture displaying Jesus as God in such a fashion. Are we all reading the same writings?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's a sweet sentiment. But like I said a day or so ago : I can't handle one Yahweh, much less two. And then there's a third Yahweh in the Revelation, that's a Jesus turned pourer outer of bowls of wrath.

I think I'll stick with just one Yahweh, thank you. In that case modalism looks good. At least there's only one at a time.

Lee wasn't a modalist. Not unless it's just the Jesus is the Father, Spirit, and Jesus mode.

When I visit diverse churches, I learn that their teacher/ministers are all over the map. Most don't even address the subject. The apologetics always like to make it seem like modalists or trinitarians are the end of the world. I once visited a place and they absolutely believed Jesus was the Father, Jesus was the Son, and Jesus was the Spirit. They told me that.

After all is said and done, who cares? I doubt even God cares much that we all have perfect theology. Years ago it was just something to condemn WL about. Today it basically just provides fuel for internet debates.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I visit diverse churches, I learn that their teacher/ministers are all over the map. Most don't even address the subject. The apologetics always like to make it seem like modalists or trinitarians are the end of the world. I once visited a place and they absolutely believed Jesus was the Father, Jesus was the Son, and Jesus was the Spirit. They told me that.

After all is said and done, who cares? I doubt even God cares much that we all have perfect theology. Years ago it was just something to condemn WL about. Today it basically just provides fuel for internet debates.

In the NT, you have this - I’m going to use the term phenomenon, but I mean no disrespect, or controversy, phenomenon called The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is that gift from God that is supposed to lead us to truth, convict us of sins, reveal the things of Jesus Christ, pour the love of God in our hearts, and bring about the workings of God. I would say that by the 3rd century, if not the second, the Holy Spirit fled the scene and was replaced by 1) nicolaitans, who loved power and influence and the best seats at the feasts and despised the little people and their fervent simple relation with God, 2) forms of Christian idolatry- removing the prominence of one God, our Father, and replacing Him with a 3 headed god 3) marriage of the church with the world, the Holy Roman Empire, where power was everything and 4) grand teachings to tie this all together.
The foundational church as established by Paul was transformed into a great mystery.

So in my opinion, it matters very much how and what one believes, what one practices, what an assembly of people preach, teach and practice. I seriously doubt what passes for the Holy Spirit today is all that holy. The thing about the early “recovery” was, I think, that we all were somehow returning to that foundational church- beliefs, meetings, practices, only to find out that some really like the chief seats at the feasts, liked to be head and shoulders above others, and filled the assemblies with something worse than the 3-4th century farce.
I think, concerning the three who work as one, with one being the One God and Father, the other being the son of God, Jesus our Lord, and one being the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the One God and Father, that the three do not work to establish the facade mystery.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

In the NT, you have this - I’m going to use the term phenomenon, but I mean no disrespect, or controversy, phenomenon called The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is that gift from God that is supposed to lead us to truth, convict us of sins, reveal the things of Jesus Christ, pour the love of God in our hearts, and bring about the workings of God. I would say that by the 3rd century, if not the second, the Holy Spirit fled the scene and was replaced by 1) nicolaitans, who loved power and influence and the best seats at the feasts and despised the little people and their fervent simple relation with God, 2) forms of Christian idolatry- removing the prominence of one God, our Father, and replacing Him with a 3 headed god 3) marriage of the church with the world, the Holy Roman Empire, where power was everything and 4) grand teachings to tie this all together.
The foundational church as established by Paul was transformed into a great mystery.

So in my opinion, it matters very much how and what one believes, what one practices, what an assembly of people preach, teach and practice. I seriously doubt what passes for the Holy Spirit today is all that holy. The thing about the early “recovery” was, I think, that we all were somehow returning to that foundational church- beliefs, meetings, practices, only to find out that some really like the chief seats at the feasts, liked to be head and shoulders above others, and filled the assemblies with something worse than the 3-4th century farce.
I think, concerning the three who work as one, with one being the One God and Father, the other being the son of God, Jesus our Lord, and one being the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the One God and Father, that the three do not work to establish the facade mystery.

The Holy Spirit is like the wind. It can't be controlled. So it goes against the church organization, that needs to be controlling.

[Trapped]

I'm not sure if this goes on this modalism thread or on the trinity thread, but I have been thinking for a few weeks about the "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image and after Our likeness...." verse.

Of course, this is often pointed to as a proof of "three in one" since God in the verse seems plural. But it hit me a few days ago that another very simple explanation is that God is speaking to someone else who is also in His image.

And if we know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and that all things were made THROUGH Jesus......it seems actually more reasonable that God is speaking to His Son. "Let Us" is "Let You, My Son, and I, God, do this thing".

If it was anyone other than God saying "Let us do xyz" we wouldn't jump to "multiple persons in one person". We would say "oh...who is he talking to?"

Just a thought.