Generalizations Of The Characteristics Of The Local Church

Covert · 05-21-2021, 06:17 AM

A lot of good post recently and I do indeed have some comments

1. Witness lee repentance didn't really have much affect on the church. The formula of hate and bashing of other believers and even towards dissenting members is so ingrained that one moment of repentance right before his death wasn't going to do much. He probably realized his time was wrapping up and all the lies, manipulation, and murderous words were going to be brought up on his judgement. I think anyone who is not completely reprobate (I sometimes think the Coworkers/Blended are close being this), would realize it would be in their best interest to repent if they did all the things witness lee did, especially towards the end of their life.

2. Social Deficiencies- One thing I noticed is that a concerning amount of brothers I have witnessed have a lot deficiencies when it comes to relationships of all sorts. When it comes to "companionship" it can real shallow. For example, a lot of brothers I know have very shallow with their wives. They dont know how to have a healthy, productive, and happy marriage. For these brothers its have babies, dont help with anything like house work, taking care of kids, or errands, and a repeat of these same things over and over. The amount of empty, shallow, and fractured families I have seen due to not cause of a unfortunate marital circumstance but due to widespread culture/teachings of the LC- were more than I was comfortable seeing. Its not that they wish to be like this, a lot of them were raised very isolated and socially disadvantaged when it came to the opposite sex. Yet their parents never put effort to have a child to parent bond on how to deal with these things and how to interact with different people and certain situations.

They (church/parents) try so hard restrict their socialization and their natural growth (psychologically) by social interactions, and put no effort into taking the burden to teach and advise on how to be an adult and handle relationships of all sorts. So in total, a major social deficiency is present in many childhoods and eventually marriages, because those same children grow up to have a spouse and kids.

So what are the factors that lead to these shattered souls/families (not all marriages/families but a concerning amount I have seen in the LC)?

I. An arranged marriage that was either one sided, or not one or the other cared about each other. This already a failure and a downward spiral of a poor marriage. Arranged is one thing, but a marriage in which 2 people don't genuinely really care about each other or majorly one sided, is not going to end well.

II. Incompetent Parenting- To keep it simple, I believe a lot of parents in the LC make their kids as helpless socially as they possibly can, so that the kids grow up to rely on the LC entirely. Its like a baby bird that is bound to never leave the nest and fly free, or maybe a better analogy is a caged bird that serves to be nothing more than to be looked at the satisfaction of the spectator/owner.

III. The Ministry- we come again to witness lee, we all the root his issue is witness lee. Witness lee did not care for the well being of individuals or families. I mean whether its dating restrictions, lack of accountability to domestic violence/ and or adultery, sexual assault, fractured marriages, depression, basic freedoms (such as jobs/studies), and other life essential things. I feel like this third Roman number/sub point can be a talking point in itself. Witness was so obsessed with maintain this fake image for the sake of the vision, or I should say grand delusion", they he never thought to himself that the greatest "death" in the lords recovery starts off with that mass neglect of the genuine care of individuals/families.

You can use the cop out "take it to the cross" and "get out of your mind" and all the mantra nonsense. In reality, when the meetings are over and the vain repetition/mantra/parroting ends, they back to that very dark and fractured "SOUL" life. I'm sorry to say but to recovery lurkers- the soul life is very important and greatly affects your "spiritual" experiences. I mean a sister cant really enjoy the meetings very much if she has to be afraid of getting beat up by her husband. A church kid wont enjoy the meetings very much if he has to go home with his or her parents everyday and see that they don't care about each other and wont care much about him/her outside of LC related things.

Imagine the social relationships of the LC as a large room, and the amount of socially fractured relationships represented darkness and the healthy/GENUINE ONES (cause we all know about the fake and shallow "companionship's" of the LC) represented light. From what I have experiences in the LC, I see a very dark room with small pockets of light in different corners. Just a very dark and somber environment, if you take away all that mantra/ vain repetition/ and parroting. You see the most desolate and despondent church environments that there is.

Question to Terry- In the LRD website you said that one of the activities of the Local Churches invovled burning family photos? I always thought the burning was a bit extreme but if people want to burn music CDs or Televisions, have it it. But why on earth would one just toss family photos in a fire? I was deeply disturbed by that, in fact its why I came on here to mention that comment. Im not sure if burning family photos is still a thing but the mentality that leads to that is most likely present at large. I know on the mylocalchurchexperience website, a sister talked about how her parents never even hugged her as a child because her mother said that is showing "natural affection". Paul does talk about the degradation of humanity and what was one of the negative characteristics he mentions in 2 Timothy 3? NO NATURAL AFFECTION. Scripture does say there will be those who will propagate destructive doctrine, now we see exactly what it looks like in practice.

Burning Family Photos, how in the world did I walk into this group in my lifetime, I learn more horrifying things day by day about this cult, thinking I knew it all.

OBW · 05-21-2021, 05:05 PM

I am starting without reading the whole thing. What I have read I generally agree with but have some additional considerations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

1. Witness lee repentance didn't really have much affect on the church. The formula of hate and bashing of other believers and even towards dissenting members is so ingrained that one moment of repentance right before his death wasn't going to do much. He probably realized his time was wrapping up and all the lies, manipulation, and murderous words were going to be brought up on his judgement. I think anyone who is not completely reprobate (I sometimes think the Coworkers/Blended are close being this), would realize it would be in their best interest to repent if they did all the things witness lee did, especially towards the end of their life.

You are probably onto something here. But if the goal was actual repentence, he needed to speak it to the ones he actually spoke against, not just the ones who heard it and were (by default) in agreement with his speaking (not his apology). Not sure that actually qualifies as repentence except to the extent he also needed to repent to his followers for saying (and leading them to say) such things about God's people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

2. Social Deficiencies- . . .

They (church/parents) try so hard restrict . . . socialization and their natural growth (psychologically) by social interactions, and put no effort into taking the burden to teach and advise on how to be an adult and handle relationships of all sorts. So in total, a major social deficiency is present in many childhoods and eventually marriages, because those same children grow up to have a spouse and kids.

This one is a real problem. It is also applicable to the more conservative evangelicals, especially those who home-school their kids. They shelter them from everything, but the moment they are outside the bubble, they are too often unprepared for the world. They can't just run from it because it is their school, job, etc., and any ideology that presents any kind of appeal can suck them in.

I note that you speak about factors that lead to the shattering of souls and families. There was once an attempt to delve into this — at least in theory, but it was too undefined and it turned into an ugly thing. I would say that just noting that it is true is probably sufficient. But as it can also be found in other groups, it takes a lot more than some observations to declare that it is more egregious than in a lot of other Christian groups (and non-Christian groups for that matter). Not saying there is nothing to see, but that as proof, it has issues somewhat like trying to pin down the applicability of the "c" word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

The Ministry- we come again to witness lee, we all the root his issue is witness lee. Witness lee did not care for the well being of individuals or families. I mean whether its dating restrictions, lack of accountability to domestic violence/ and or adultery, sexual assault, fractured marriages, depression, basic freedoms (such as jobs/studies), and other life essential things. I feel like this third Roman number/sub point can be a talking point in itself. Witness was so obsessed with maintain this fake image for the sake of the vision, or I should say grand delusion", they he never thought to himself that the greatest "death" in the lords recovery starts off with that mass neglect of the genuine care of individuals/families.

Lack of care for the individual beyond what they can do for the group is a significant issue. And the abuses that happened at the hand of the leadership just adds to the problems. They wanted "good material" but couldn't help turning it into refuse to be cast aside if they weren't able to provide themselves self-help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

You can use the cop out "take it to the cross" and "get out of your mind" and all the mantra nonsense. In reality, when the meetings are over and the vain repetition/mantra/parroting ends, they back to that very dark and fractured "SOUL" life.

Once again, put the onus on the individual to "buck-up" (or as my mother used to say to us as kids, "straighten up and fly right!").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

Burning Family Photos, how in the world did I walk into this group in my lifetime, I learn more horrifying things day by day about this cult, thinking I knew it all.

If there is anything that is more cult-like than anything, this is it. Not just burning books of the occult like in the NT, but so wantonly cutting yourself off from your family (even some aspects of the ones that are right there in the LC with you) is classic control mechanisms. I won't insist it is mind control, but it probably is.

aron · 05-22-2021, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

If there is anything that is more cult-like than anything, this is it. Not just burning books of the occult like in the NT, but so wantonly cutting yourself off from your family (even some aspects of the ones that are right there in the LC with you) is classic control mechanisms. I won't insist it is mind control, but it probably is.

There was a forum with the anacronym "BARM" - Bereans Apologetics Research Ministry - that had about 40 pages of LC testimonies. Unfortunately it got taken down. It came out in the early 2000s, lasted till maybe 2010 or so. Some of the stories were horrifying. A church leader's son wrote about how the family photos were publicly burned. He watched as his singed picture got lifted up by the heat and drifted out of the fire. Someone walked over, picked it up, put it back in. This was in front of the entire church. He was what, 7 or 8 years old? Can you imagine what this group did to the souls of the children immersed in this world 24/7, with no other frame of reference? It's sobering to contemplate. I came in as a naiive college student, from a fairly solid mainline Protestant background, and it took years after my physical extrication to unweave their programming from my thoughts. Can you imagine what challenges the ex-Church Kids face?

OBW · 05-22-2021, 05:56 PM

Unfortunately, for some the damage was permanent. Some just got away at the first chance and tried to move on to a normal life. But even some that got that far still had problems from it.

I started to mention one of the more dire of the testimonies. I will leave it unspecific, but it concerned some very serious charges against the father that was one of the most respected elders in the US at one time. And the damage was severe.

Covert · 05-29-2021, 09:37 AM

9. Reprobation (definition taken from online)- Reprobation, in Christian theology, is a doctrine which teaches that a person can reject the gospel to a point where God in turn rejects them and curses their conscience. ... When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience for particularly vile acts, it is considered a sign of reprobation.

Recently with some slight scuffles, I have been hearing about “speaking the truth in love” and really thinking about that never seems to work towards the leader of the lord’s recovery. Im recollecting all the efforts of sweet and sincere saints trying to reach the hearts of this cults leadership and never availing. This forum (in my opinion), for the most part just serves to show the truth and expose the LR. I also have heard this forum to speak to the coworkers/leadership and address issues they wish to be fixed? That sounds nice but when I keep track of how the coworkers react to online content, its pretty unpleasing to say the least. It involves some sort of enemy/rebellion diatribe and wishing upon destruction of “Gods enemy” and the “lords move”. In every major address to the LR by former members such as Ingalls, Isitt, Casteel Malon, so on and so on, it just led to demonization and diatribes. Historically, I don’t think there has ever been a moment of reconciliation between ex-member and current leaders of the LR to meet and discuss serious issues that needs to be addressed.

For this post of mine specifically, I am really to understand what the source of this complete rejection of vile crimes/sins that is are plaguing the church and not being dealt with. Like why is it so hard for the leaders to even attempt to deal with these issues? Even the Catholic church tries to deal with its sex crimes, it’s a never-ending battle but there has been lots of effort/support system do deal with these issues (for the most part). Then I have been thinking of all the witness lee teaching of TOTKOGAE , “Covering”, and “not being in the mind” etc. Its obvious these teachings is what leads them to be so blockading in regards to people addressing issues.

So my final question is, Lee doctrine especially specific teachings aimed to make one amoral, which in practice leads to an environment of perpetuating evil, ultimately leads to a dilemma of moral pestilence known as- Reprobation. To some degree, do you think there is some sort of reprobate moral pestilence/curse running around the Lords Recovery because of the results of Lee doctrinal teachings on neglecting evil? Reprobate is a scary thing to consider, but what’s scarier is how often the Co-workers potentially come across the crimes described in Jo Casteel Letter or the recent OKC incident, and even the Houston incident with Alan Bayes written by Andrea.

I have never come across supposed “Christians” that were so neglectful of gratuitous/nefarious evil. I wish:” speaking the truth in love” worked, but it obviously historically has not. It leads to more condemnation/demonization from the leadership, the more speaking in love you give regarding truths that need to be addressed, the more hate they give back. I don’t understand this strange/bizarre situation in the lord’s recovery. What I came up with so far is reprobation that stems from Lee doctrine? What do you think? Do you agree/disagree? Do you have an explanation from this situation of the local churches? Type away your thoughts, you can contest me, agree with me, whatever you want.

aron · 05-29-2021, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

Historically, I don’t think there's ever been a moment of reconciliation between ex-member and current leaders of the LR to meet and discuss serious issues that need to be addressed....

to understand what the source of this complete rejection of vile crimes/sins that is are plaguing the church and not being dealt with. Like why is it so hard for the leaders to even attempt to deal with these issues?

The simplest explanation I can find is that Oriental culture at Witness Lee's source is being manifested. He panned fallen human culture at every turn yet was blind to his own, and the corrosive effect it had on those who followed him.

1. Look up "Guanxi network" and you'll see the Local Church/Living Stream Ministry described to a 't'. There's never been a "ministry of reconciliation" like Paul described to the Corinthians. Once you violate the rules of the guanxi network you're out. (I did hear of one brother who returned after negative speaking and they let him sit quietly in the back, but he couldn't speak. Some reconciliation).

(I believe WL was speaking on 'reconciliation' when he said that they should reconcile with those who'd left. Steve Isitt then took him at his word, and look where that went).

2. The complete inability at any level to repent, to turn, learn from mistakes. The Maximum Leader(ML) has liberality to criticise anyone and everyone, and in the LC this incessant critique is mistaken for leadership and spiritual ascendancy. But nobody can criticise the ML, even when he's waaaayyyy off base. I source the cultural roots of this tendency from an observation that I made of Chinese politics. Nobody can criticise the ML in China. Even decades after Mao's death, if you mention a mistake of any kind, you're going to pay, and dearly, for being 'unpatriotic.' So the truth takes a back seat to social stability. In the West it's admittedly a bit messier, but we have this thing called freedom, where we can think and then speak what we think.

It's ironic that the house organ DCP can "Affirm and Critique" everyone else, and everyone else is expected to only "Affirm" the DCP. No critiques allowed. Then, it's called slander, attack, accusation etc etc.

Covert · 05-30-2021, 07:48 AM

Ok Aaron, great post by you. So this mixture of the bible and Chinese culture led to the Guaxni Netowrk influencing Authority/Submission/Silencing teachings of Nee and Lee. Do you think that mixture led to a long of issues that resulted in some form of reprobation? Or is reprobation too much of a monster to quite pin the LR just yet? Or perhaps the Guaxni culture did lead to a downward spiral when mixed in with Christianity and one of those negative effects is reprobation? Idk, I think this will require some in depth analysis to even reach some sort of sensible conclusion.

05-21-2021, 06:17 AM	#1
Covert Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Re: Generalizations Of The Characteristics Of The Local Church A lot of good post recently and I do indeed have some comments 1. Witness lee repentance didn't really have much affect on the church. The formula of hate and bashing of other believers and even towards dissenting members is so ingrained that one moment of repentance right before his death wasn't going to do much. He probably realized his time was wrapping up and all the lies, manipulation, and murderous words were going to be brought up on his judgement. I think anyone who is not completely reprobate (I sometimes think the Coworkers/Blended are close being this), would realize it would be in their best interest to repent if they did all the things witness lee did, especially towards the end of their life. 2. Social Deficiencies- One thing I noticed is that a concerning amount of brothers I have witnessed have a lot deficiencies when it comes to relationships of all sorts. When it comes to "companionship" it can real shallow. For example, a lot of brothers I know have very shallow with their wives. They dont know how to have a healthy, productive, and happy marriage. For these brothers its have babies, dont help with anything like house work, taking care of kids, or errands, and a repeat of these same things over and over. The amount of empty, shallow, and fractured families I have seen due to not cause of a unfortunate marital circumstance but due to widespread culture/teachings of the LC- were more than I was comfortable seeing. Its not that they wish to be like this, a lot of them were raised very isolated and socially disadvantaged when it came to the opposite sex. Yet their parents never put effort to have a child to parent bond on how to deal with these things and how to interact with different people and certain situations. They (church/parents) try so hard restrict their socialization and their natural growth (psychologically) by social interactions, and put no effort into taking the burden to teach and advise on how to be an adult and handle relationships of all sorts. So in total, a major social deficiency is present in many childhoods and eventually marriages, because those same children grow up to have a spouse and kids. So what are the factors that lead to these shattered souls/families (not all marriages/families but a concerning amount I have seen in the LC)? I. An arranged marriage that was either one sided, or not one or the other cared about each other. This already a failure and a downward spiral of a poor marriage. Arranged is one thing, but a marriage in which 2 people don't genuinely really care about each other or majorly one sided, is not going to end well. II. Incompetent Parenting- To keep it simple, I believe a lot of parents in the LC make their kids as helpless socially as they possibly can, so that the kids grow up to rely on the LC entirely. Its like a baby bird that is bound to never leave the nest and fly free, or maybe a better analogy is a caged bird that serves to be nothing more than to be looked at the satisfaction of the spectator/owner. III. The Ministry- we come again to witness lee, we all the root his issue is witness lee. Witness lee did not care for the well being of individuals or families. I mean whether its dating restrictions, lack of accountability to domestic violence/ and or adultery, sexual assault, fractured marriages, depression, basic freedoms (such as jobs/studies), and other life essential things. I feel like this third Roman number/sub point can be a talking point in itself. Witness was so obsessed with maintain this fake image for the sake of the vision, or I should say grand delusion", they he never thought to himself that the greatest "death" in the lords recovery starts off with that mass neglect of the genuine care of individuals/families. You can use the cop out "take it to the cross" and "get out of your mind" and all the mantra nonsense. In reality, when the meetings are over and the vain repetition/mantra/parroting ends, they back to that very dark and fractured "SOUL" life. I'm sorry to say but to recovery lurkers- the soul life is very important and greatly affects your "spiritual" experiences. I mean a sister cant really enjoy the meetings very much if she has to be afraid of getting beat up by her husband. A church kid wont enjoy the meetings very much if he has to go home with his or her parents everyday and see that they don't care about each other and wont care much about him/her outside of LC related things. Imagine the social relationships of the LC as a large room, and the amount of socially fractured relationships represented darkness and the healthy/GENUINE ONES (cause we all know about the fake and shallow "companionship's" of the LC) represented light. From what I have experiences in the LC, I see a very dark room with small pockets of light in different corners. Just a very dark and somber environment, if you take away all that mantra/ vain repetition/ and parroting. You see the most desolate and despondent church environments that there is. Question to Terry- In the LRD website you said that one of the activities of the Local Churches invovled burning family photos? I always thought the burning was a bit extreme but if people want to burn music CDs or Televisions, have it it. But why on earth would one just toss family photos in a fire? I was deeply disturbed by that, in fact its why I came on here to mention that comment. Im not sure if burning family photos is still a thing but the mentality that leads to that is most likely present at large. I know on the mylocalchurchexperience website, a sister talked about how her parents never even hugged her as a child because her mother said that is showing "natural affection". Paul does talk about the degradation of humanity and what was one of the negative characteristics he mentions in 2 Timothy 3? NO NATURAL AFFECTION. Scripture does say there will be those who will propagate destructive doctrine, now we see exactly what it looks like in practice. Burning Family Photos, how in the world did I walk into this group in my lifetime, I learn more horrifying things day by day about this cult, thinking I knew it all. Last edited by Covert; 05-21-2021 at 08:34 AM.

05-22-2021, 05:56 PM	#4
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: Generalizations Of The Characteristics Of The Local Church Unfortunately, for some the damage was permanent. Some just got away at the first chance and tried to move on to a normal life. But even some that got that far still had problems from it. I started to mention one of the more dire of the testimonies. I will leave it unspecific, but it concerned some very serious charges against the father that was one of the most respected elders in the US at one time. And the damage was severe. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

05-29-2021, 09:37 AM	#5
Covert Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Re: Generalizations Of The Characteristics Of The Local Church 9. Reprobation (definition taken from online)- Reprobation, in Christian theology, is a doctrine which teaches that a person can reject the gospel to a point where God in turn rejects them and curses their conscience. ... When a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience for particularly vile acts, it is considered a sign of reprobation. Recently with some slight scuffles, I have been hearing about “speaking the truth in love” and really thinking about that never seems to work towards the leader of the lord’s recovery. Im recollecting all the efforts of sweet and sincere saints trying to reach the hearts of this cults leadership and never availing. This forum (in my opinion), for the most part just serves to show the truth and expose the LR. I also have heard this forum to speak to the coworkers/leadership and address issues they wish to be fixed? That sounds nice but when I keep track of how the coworkers react to online content, its pretty unpleasing to say the least. It involves some sort of enemy/rebellion diatribe and wishing upon destruction of “Gods enemy” and the “lords move”. In every major address to the LR by former members such as Ingalls, Isitt, Casteel Malon, so on and so on, it just led to demonization and diatribes. Historically, I don’t think there has ever been a moment of reconciliation between ex-member and current leaders of the LR to meet and discuss serious issues that needs to be addressed. For this post of mine specifically, I am really to understand what the source of this complete rejection of vile crimes/sins that is are plaguing the church and not being dealt with. Like why is it so hard for the leaders to even attempt to deal with these issues? Even the Catholic church tries to deal with its sex crimes, it’s a never-ending battle but there has been lots of effort/support system do deal with these issues (for the most part). Then I have been thinking of all the witness lee teaching of TOTKOGAE , “Covering”, and “not being in the mind” etc. Its obvious these teachings is what leads them to be so blockading in regards to people addressing issues. So my final question is, Lee doctrine especially specific teachings aimed to make one amoral, which in practice leads to an environment of perpetuating evil, ultimately leads to a dilemma of moral pestilence known as- Reprobation. To some degree, do you think there is some sort of reprobate moral pestilence/curse running around the Lords Recovery because of the results of Lee doctrinal teachings on neglecting evil? Reprobate is a scary thing to consider, but what’s scarier is how often the Co-workers potentially come across the crimes described in Jo Casteel Letter or the recent OKC incident, and even the Houston incident with Alan Bayes written by Andrea. I have never come across supposed “Christians” that were so neglectful of gratuitous/nefarious evil. I wish:” speaking the truth in love” worked, but it obviously historically has not. It leads to more condemnation/demonization from the leadership, the more speaking in love you give regarding truths that need to be addressed, the more hate they give back. I don’t understand this strange/bizarre situation in the lord’s recovery. What I came up with so far is reprobation that stems from Lee doctrine? What do you think? Do you agree/disagree? Do you have an explanation from this situation of the local churches? Type away your thoughts, you can contest me, agree with me, whatever you want.

05-30-2021, 07:48 AM	#7
Covert Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Re: Generalizations Of The Characteristics Of The Local Church Ok Aaron, great post by you. So this mixture of the bible and Chinese culture led to the Guaxni Netowrk influencing Authority/Submission/Silencing teachings of Nee and Lee. Do you think that mixture led to a long of issues that resulted in some form of reprobation? Or is reprobation too much of a monster to quite pin the LR just yet? Or perhaps the Guaxni culture did lead to a downward spiral when mixed in with Christianity and one of those negative effects is reprobation? Idk, I think this will require some in depth analysis to even reach some sort of sensible conclusion.