Pray-Reading is Scriptural

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Nell, if I am praying and my mind wanders a teeny bit to think of something else, does than mean I am mindless? Seems to me that means I switched thoughts, but not mindlessness. Thoughts of believers may drift and wander at times during prayer, but this still is not mindlessness. No Nell, I have never been mindless and that is not an exaggeration. Social science experts would probably have some helpful input for a person if they have a mindless experience, especially if they are conscious, don't you think so?

I'm not here to play word games with an unregistered poster child over the clinical definition of "mindless".

Thanks for stopping by.
Nell

Dont worry Nell, I got this.

To the Unregistered user who is trying to engage in the semantics of the word "mindless", I have a much more accurate description of your so called "pray reading" that attempts to "contact God"

So what is it? Well we all know what is coming up in a moment and for some reason the LR tends to ignore these for our lords from Jesus Christ.

Matthew 6:7- 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Heathen vain repetition, the classic LR practice of "getting out of your mind". So if you were "in your mind" while pray reading, you are doing it wrong according to the LR brother/sister. Dont you know you are supposed to "get out of your mind"? Putting aside the humor in this nonsensical cultural practice, pray reading is just heathen vain repetition that leads one to think they will be heard by our lord for their "many words".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not here to play word games with an unregistered poster child over the clinical definition of "mindless".

Thanks for stopping by.
Nell

Nell, if you really want open discussion with LC members, isn't this a little harsh?

[UntoHim]

Maybe we can try to limit the breadth of the conversation to try and answer this question: Is the practice of Pray-Reading AS TAUGHT BY WITNESS LEE AND PRACTICED BY HIS FOLLOWERS actually scritpural? I know that it is very easy for some of us to get offended by the mere asking of such questions. But I would ask you to step back, take a deep breath, and open your Bible. Please show us the verses that would confirm, by way of prescription, or at least description, this practice as it was taught by Witness Lee and as it has been practiced in the Local Church/Lord's Recovery.

Let's all try to do our best to not get sidetracked by answering this question with another question, or by obvuscating the matter at hand by retorting with ad hominems and flaming other posters.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Maybe we can try to limit the breadth of the conversation to try and answer this question: Is the practice of Pray-Reading AS TAUGHT BY WITNESS LEE AND PRACTICED BY HIS FOLLOWERS actually scriptural? I know that it is very easy for some of us to get offended by the mere asking of such questions. But I would ask you to step back, take a deep breath, and open your Bible. Please show us the verses that would confirm, by way of prescription, or at least description, this practice as it was taught by Witness Lee and as it has been practiced in the Local Church/Lord's Recovery.

Let's all try to do our best to not get sidetracked by answering this question with another question, or by obvuscating the matter at hand by retorting with ad hominems and flaming other posters.
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But, if I may, Mr. Moderator, perhaps your question highlighted above obfuscates the original poster's -- Raptor -- assertion with "another question." You know like you always say, "stay on topic."

Wouldn't it be more productive, and conducive to the discussion between present and former LC members to direct the posters to address pray-reading as documented in the book, “Lord Thou Saidst…” as Raptor attempted to do when he started the thread?

All of us would agree that mindless chanting of words and phrases from some message outline published by LSM is akin to vain babbling, which Jesus Himself warned us about. Yet, as the book, “Lord Thou Saidst…”
highlights, many renowned men of God have prayed the scriptures, and Paul also seemed to recommend in Eph 6.17-18.

Having visited with many diverse Christians, post Recovery, I found that many brothers and sisters have prayed the verses from the Bible, turning verses into heartfelt personal prayer to God, not robotically according to some prescribed LSM formula, but spontaneously or inspirationally as they perused God's word. Wouldn't you agree?

Isn't it better to "cut straight the word of the truth" (2 Tm 2.15) on this point, separating the good from the worthless (Heb 5.14), so that the readers could grow and be profited?

Greetings! It is only my opinion that Ohio has stated some thoughts well in his last post on pray-reading. Witness Lee did use Ephesians 6:17-18 as a basis for using the Word to pray. We should not merely look at pray-reading as something only Witness Lee encouraged and taught from the Bible. A careful study of church history will find that so many believers used the Word to help them in their prayer time. Martin Luther said "the best prayer book is the Bible." He shared his experiences of using the Word to mix in-between his prayer. Madame Guyon, a spiritual Catholic, recommended pray-reading. Andrew Murray also encouraged this practice. Could it be that there have been some pray-reading experiences among some believers that really "are not the best example" of what real pray-reading is meant to be?

I think that this very discussion will help all of us readers to pray-read the proper way, and not mindless shouting and empty repeating the same words. The loud voice in heaven in Revelation 19:1-4, repeating of "Hallelujah" and "Amen" at least 3 times certainly is not vain repeating of the same words. Amen and Hallelujah are the praises of the saints for Christ's victory. And do not think that I sit around and read only WN and WL publications. I recently came across a portion in a publication by K.C. Hinkley in his "A Compact Guide to the Christian Life." On page 43 he asks the question, "How is Christian meditation different from what is done in Eastern religions?" He then states, "The meditation practiced in Eastern religions is a matter of emptying your mind and opening yourself up spiritually to whatever voice or influence happens. Christian meditation aims to focus the mind in openness to God's voice, and no other." And then further he states on page 44, "Christians use the word meditation to describe two slightly different things. The first is a directed, focused thinking in which you mull over a passage of Scripture to draw out its meat. The second is a kind of prayer. It is related to meditating on Scripture that is intended to quiet your brain enough to let God's Word to sink into your heart." A growing believer may find his mind to be troublesome with all the anxieties of this age that we live in, so I feel it is fitting for K.C. Hinkley to point out that we can "quiet your brain enough to let God's Word sink into your heart." Lastly on page 81, Hinkley states that meditation is "digesting a scriptural truth by chewing on it over and over until you understand it." Another publication that I have greatly benefitted is written by Terry Bowland entitled, "Make isciples!:Reaching the Postmodern World for Christ." He discusses how to approach friends and people to reach them and share the good news of the gospel. This book has been a great help to my patience towards sinners and has helped me to listen to people with a concern and care, all the while intending to look for an opportunity to share the gospel with them. I hope we all can take a moment after considering this matter of pray-reading and delight ourselves in prayer over God's Word.

[UntoHim]

Just couldn't resist, could you Ohio. You just had to answer my relevant and pertinent question with another question. Hey, at least you didn't flame me....so I guess you're batting .500 and that aint bad!

Ok, does anybody have an electronic copy of Thou Saidst? It seems to me that LSM may have a free online version somewhere? Of course I already addressed the contentions set forth in this booklet earlier on the thread, but hey, I'm game. Let's hash it over again.

I must tell you all, however, that the discussion will probably not be too "production or condusive" if nobody wants to address the real issue at hand - What did Witness Lee teach about "Pray-Reading"? And how is it practiced in the Local Church by the majority of members? I don't see how we can get anywhere by comparing Andrew Murray or any of the others because what they have written is biblical and what is taught and practiced in the Local Church is not biblical.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Just couldn't resist, could you Ohio. You just had to answer my relevant and pertinent question with another question. Hey, at least you didn't flame me....so I guess you're batting .500 and that aint bad!

For the life of me I can't figure out this latest version of LCD. The moderators constantly remind posters to stay on topic and respect the OP's thread, and then when I do exactly that, you don't seem very happy about it.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I must tell you all, however, that the discussion will probably not be too "production or conducive" if nobody wants to address the real issue at hand - What did Witness Lee teach about "Pray-Reading"? And how is it practiced in the Local Church by the majority of members? I don't see how we can get anywhere by comparing Andrew Murray or any of the others because what they have written is biblical and what is taught and practiced in the Local Church is not biblical. -

Well ... the answer to your questions is quite simple. Use that book to expose what the Recovery calls "pray-reading" is not what they claim it to be. That book by Graver was a compilation of many well respected men of God throughout church history. The Recovery uses it as justification for their aberrant meeting practices.

Here's the first point of refutation: No place in the book, or in church history for that matter, is the Recovery practice of public "pray-reading" of meeting handouts endorsed.

Here's another: the phrase "pray-reading," to the best of my knowledge, is never mentioned in the book. It is a Recovery invention, with no support in church history.

Even Graver's sub-title says: "... the Intimate and Vital Relationship between God's Word and Prayer." All Christians would agree with that, eh?