Subtle Issues of Right and Wrong During the late 80s Rebellion

[Indiana]

The document entitled The Divine Romance I had condensed from Brother Lee's first life-study message of the Bible, which he began in Romans, 1975. (I failed to mention this but planned to do so today.)

I added or changed the message only slightly and had the condensed version printed as a tract several years ago. It was a striking overview of the Bible that I had never heard and wanted to share with others.

Significant Note that helped lead to my demise in the church: I turned this and two other tracts in to the elders in Seattle for their review and fellowship and possible endorsement of them for use by the church. Six weeks later they did not get back to me. So I tried again and another six weeks went by. Then I contacted them and they finally got back to me and did feel good about the tracts and we put them out on the counter in the meeting hall area for the saints and new ones. But this lack of communication by them bothered me very much. We had no tracts in the meeting hall and I had labored to provide some for the gospel.

I can't remember the sequence of events, but I was to contact LSM and ask their permisssion for the use of their material that was at least interspersed in the text of my tracts. So, I wrote to LSM and asked for their permission. Not only 6 weeks went by, 6 months went by; then another six months; altogether two years went by before I confronted Andrew Yu in Seattle where he was giving a conference and let him know I was certainly not happy with him and LSM for ignoring my requests for fellowship. He looked down then admitted to me that they don't answer such requests, but just drop the letter into a box. He said that when he returned to Anaheim he would bring the matter up with the staff about getting back to those who write to them expecting a response. A month later I got a note of apology from LSM, no names signed.

This, of course, happened during the new way movement and they had their agenda, and it didn't include paying attention to me as a little member asking for fellowship. This was added to my observation and experience of the great lack of shepherding in my locality of those especially who were not so lined up with the new way program. I was very much bothered - because this was not the body of Christ, but something else in actuality. Then when I read John Ingalls' book I saw the problem and could and would begin to define it in commentaries.

[ZNPaaneah]

I find this to be a fascinating testimony, truly. Consider this, LSM is involved in the FTT because all saints need to be trained to preach the gospel, spread the word, shepherd, perfect, etc. Now here is a brother that is doing just that, and is doing this according to fellowship, and is merely asking for permission to use WL material for this purpose and they, as a matter of standard procedure, deep six the request. Now if this brother had just ignored protocol and gone ahead and printed these up word probably would have gotten back to the LSM and within days they would have been contacted, perhaps even by the legal team at LSM.

What is particularly interesting about this is that it is not an isolated event, this is in fact a common testimony concerning the LSM. So I find it fascinating that they expend so much energy talking about how burdened they are to train saints, yet they won't so much as lift a pinky finger to help a brother out that is motivated to function.

It almost makes you feel like the burden to train saints is not really that genuine.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It almost makes you feel like the burden to train saints is not really that genuine.

Let's add the word "train" to that "doublespeak" thread, after the words "fellowship, perfect, gospel ..."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let's add the word "train" to that "doublespeak" thread, after the words "fellowship, perfect, gospel ..."

What would be really nice is if there was someone who instead of talking a big game about training, if instead he would just train giant killers without making a lot of noise. I would really like to see if I could find a man of God somewhere who was in the reality of passing on his faith and relationship with God without trying to turn it into an enterprise and a registered charity. If only we could find someone like that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I find this to be a fascinating testimony, truly. Consider this, LSM is involved in the FTT because all saints need to be trained to preach the gospel, spread the word, shepherd, perfect, etc...

That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.

Are you implying that the real burden is to push out LSM foot soldiers, not foot soldiers for God?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you implying that the real burden is to push out LSM foot soldiers, not foot soldiers for God?

You were there. Please do tell us the truth about the FTT. Was the end result to spread God, or to spread the Living Stream Ministry brand?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

You were there. Please do tell us the truth about the FTT. Was the end result to spread God, or to spread the Living Stream Ministry brand?

Sure, I can share my experience, I don't think that it reflects poorly on the LSM though.

I came to the FTTT in the third semester and they closed the training to saints from the US shortly after that. However, I stayed and did not return. I did door knocking and baptizing people in their bathtub, and all the statistics. However, the church in Taipei was already complaining that despite the great numbers of those baptized they hadn't seen any fruit in the meetings, this became the most pressing issue during the 3rd semester and our focus during the 4th. They teamed me up with the brother from Austin who had had huge success with door knocking and was one of those leading the training when it came to the gospel. They also added a chinese sister who also had very good numbers statistically. She wasn't in the training, she was a sister in the local church in Taipei which gave us a very important contact with the church. They also added another sister from the US to our group who was in the training. I believe that this pairing was an attempt to find a breakthrough.

We were assigned a campus, it was a graduate school for engineering. Probably the most prized gospel field in Taipei. I spent the break between the 3rd and 4th semesters on campus establishing an English class / Bible study from my gospel contacts. Because of our schedules the four of us rarely worked together, but we did coordinate. I spent the afternoons on campus with my English class / Bible study and then at night I went to my job (I was supporting myself at the training from the time they asked the foreigners to leave). At night the Austin brother, the American sister and the Chinese sister door knocked and directed contacts to my Bible study. They also coordinated with some of the brothers on campus that were coming to that Bible study. Shortly after that the American sister worked out a small group meetings with the Taipei hall that was closest to this campus and so she would arrive at the end of my English class and take those who wanted to go to this home meeting.

Over the course of about 2-3 months we had 18 brothers added to the meetings of this hall. This was heralded as the breakthrough they were looking for and we were questioned as to our methods, etc. Based on this rather brief meeting new books came out designed to be used during home meetings with new ones.

To me, the books they came out with were completely useless and I didn't use them. So you could wonder, were they truly looking for a solution, or were they looking for a solution that involved selling books? I don't know, I think the process they followed was very useful and productive right up to the point of the books. I think because I was quite frank that they had missed the point and the books would not help my input was no longer sought. But that is pure conjecture.

I do know from experience being very close to the LSM leaders and serving in the LSM for years that they never, to my observation, showed any interest in anything that anyone brought to them. On the other hand they did occasionally have a need that they would ask others to help with (that happened to me several times). I could speculate that it was like the old western "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" kind of thing, but that would be speculation.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Actually, they are not as careless or inaccurate as someone like Ron may think. You may not like the flippant way that Harold says it, but a "full time" training that focuses almost exclusively on the ministry of a man who glossed over so much of the scripture and did the kind of illegitimate allegorizing being discussed in another thread on the rest of it is hard to understand as much more than a way to spread the LSM brand. And it is something used, after all those "truth camps" that the young attend, to complete the indoctrination into the LRC.

As Harold would probably say, "confuse and pickle them while they are young and they will never question it as they grow older." It seems that one of the Proverbs reads something like that, of course with a much purer intent and content.

[ZNPaaneah]

In my experience I did not get any training from the FTTT, what I got was the liberty to labor full time in the gospel with several coworkers. Though after about two months that "liberty" was based on my paying my own way.

I did try their approach to door knocking and I did baptize about 40 or so people that way, but I never felt it was valuable to me. The approach I took on the campus was, to my sense, much more sensible and effective. I was trained in the gospel by DC in Houston. Most of those conducting the training in Taipei, to my impression, did not know what they were talking about when it came to the gospel (the brother from Austin is an exception).

Also, the LSM materials were something that I quickly discarded. You have to realize, if you are going to preach the gospel 20 or 30 times a night, do you really want to repeat the same script 20 or 30 times? All I wanted was a pocket NT and preach improv, it was much more interesting.

Likewise the homestudy materials seemed to me to be a waste of money. The entire benefit of a home meeting is that you can fellowship with the new ones, they get to speak and you respond to their speaking. It seemed to me they were prepared by those who had never gotten their hands dirty. Consulting with us was, in my opinion, a pretense.

[RollingStone]

I have noticed that some people like to have a plan and regimen and feel safe with that. They like to have the same experience over and over, hence the success of Mcdonalds. They really get anxiety if they are in a situation to try something new. I think they think within Oh I might not like that, I don't know. I would be really sad if my only food was Mcdonalds.

When I was a boy I had a lesson about God from an older man who I was helping him plant tree seedlings. He had gotten a few hundred tree seedlings and we were planting them in a big field on a hill. He was digging the holes and I was putting the seedlings in the hole and covering them up stepping on the dirt to complete the job. I was thinking the old man wasn't digging the holes in the right places as I thought they should be evenly spaced and in rows and even suggested that he should be doing that which he responded that man plants things in rows and that God does things in random and that he wanted the little seedlings to grow up and look like God had done the planting. That was about 40 yrs. ago and when i drive by that area I think it would look really silly now if all the trees were evenly spaced in rows as I was thinking they should be.

When I went to share with others with a method, people could see i was following a method but if I was'nt following a method then people could see something else and He gets the Glory not the method.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Steve, if you know something about this, wouldn't it be appropriate to share it with us?

It was supposed to be a surprise!

[TLFisher]

Please delete.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

So you are saying the FTT's are legit., and of God. And not for the purpose of promoting the LSM brand? Have you been thru the FTT? Are you telling us the bottom line truth about the FTT, that it is of God, and for the purposes of God, beyond the reach of Living Stream Ministry? Tell it like it is, bro Inddy., like you see it. Correct me with reason, that it's not for propaganda purposes in support of LSM brand churches.

And Ron Kangas doesn't need any reasons to condemn us. We're condemned already, for not being under him. But, in the end, who cares what Kangas condemns? It matters naught. Kangas is just one man among 6.6 billion others.

He's like all the rest of us -- and how's this for rubbing you the wrong way -- a pimple on the butt end of creation ... that thinks it's a beauty mark.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Harold,

This is too much, as many of your posts are for me. I don't say anything to you, usually, out of the respect I have for you. But you are trying for me.

Posts like this are careless and inaccurate, giving a Ron Kangas reason to condemn us. (As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

((Having not attended, but knowing many people who did)) -- Personally, I believe the main purpose of the FTTA is the promotion of a particular kind of "Lord's Recovery culture" among the young adults. Culture is one of those things, we all know, it's not about good or bad, right or wrong, rather, cultures are just different.

But their understanding of their own culture is so thoroughly wrapped up with what it means to be spiritual ... there's no separating the two. To be spiritual means to act like them, talk like them, use their pet catch-phrases, have the same look in your eyes ... do you think a two-year training with a fairly intensive schedule can be effective in this "culture promotion"?

I think it's pretty effective.

Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow! I trained some trainees and I know others that did as well and we didn't have the slightest interest in people acting like us or talking like us, etc. I remember for a final exam in "advanced english class" everyone had to preach the gospel as a team, using the hymn "Hark the Herald Angels sing" as an outline. They shared testimonies, taught, quoted scripture (I asked them specifically not to quote footnotes or hymns as I felt they would just be used as filler and I was ultimately testing whether they were able to speak english). One brother gave a very good testimony. I got up afterwards and pointed out that the reason the testimony was so good was because he had something to say, not because he was jumping up and down and gesticulating a certain way. I told them "don't imitate the way he gave his testimony" instead learn from him to study, get into the word and then have something to say.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think based on the broadest definition of propaganda, then of course they are propaganda centers. Based on the narrow association of propaganda with totalitarian regimes and mind control, no I would not go that far. But who knows, 1987 was a long time ago, I have no idea to what this thing has morphed into. (I did visit the FTTA and was not impressed).

Not really sure what point you're trying to make. If you want to remind us that you're different, I think we've already realized that by now.

In any event, thanks for noting the difference in time and place, I made it a point to say FTTA because I don't pretend to understand the Recovery culture on the planet of Taiwan.

I barely understand it here...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

(As DCP gears up for internet defense, I understand)

Please see under prayer suggestions:

http://churchinbellevue.org/wp-conte..._8-14-2011.pdf

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's perchance because the LSM FTT training's are actually propaganda centers ... exploiting the young, ignorant, and gullible.

Having witnessed 30 plus years of rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland, with me (and many local saints) actually attending both LSM "trainings" and TC "labors," I have concluded that the underlying motives for these events are "mixed" and not entirely pure. One underlying motive which was common to both centers was the goal to bring leaders and aspiring young future talents under their subjection.

One proof of this was the recent expulsion of John Myer from the Cleveland circle for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's conferences and labors.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having witnessed 30 plus years of rivalry between Anaheim and Cleveland, with me (and many local saints) actually attending both LSM "trainings" and TC "labors," I have concluded that the underlying motives for these events are "mixed" and not entirely pure. One underlying motive which was common to both centers was the goal to bring leaders and aspiring young future talents under their subjection.

One proof of this was the recent expulsion of John Myer from the Cleveland circle for not bringing his campus fruit to TC's conferences and labors.

Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.

I think you are painting with too broad a brush. From my experience there is very little oversight, much less than you would imagine, to the trainers. In my case I was teaching about 40-50 trainees who were considered advanced English speakers, and I was given free reign, completely. Bad trainer, bad result, good trainer, good result.

Now, other aspects are that many of these brothers are quite new in the Lord and therefore easily influence. Also, i noticed that far fewer of them were 2nd generation than you would normally expect to find in a meeting hall, most it seemed had just recently been saved in college. Also, all trainees attend the same meetings, study the same books, and do the same thing. Of course, we also wore the same clothes, slept in barracks, etc.

I think based on the broadest definition of propaganda, then of course they are propaganda centers. Based on the narrow association of propaganda with totalitarian regimes and mind control, no I would not go that far. But who knows, 1987 was a long time ago, I have no idea to what this thing has morphed into. (I did visit the FTTA and was not impressed).

I would say the feel of the FTTT was similar to being in boot camp in the army boot camp is certainly a form of propaganda and mind control from an authoritarian regime.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well at least you point out something about the trainings. Unless I missed it, neither bro Z nor bro Inddy have stated whether they think the FTTs are propaganda or LSM brandless God promotion centers.

I hesitate to answer this question because I know it is merely my opinion and no doubt the LSM head honchos would deny and contradict it. But as long as everyone understands that I am merely giving my personal opinion because I was asked, and that I state clearly up front I was not a "decider" or even involved in fellowship leading up to key decisions, in the LSM I will give my opinion.

During the 3rd semester for the FTTT "abiding fruit" was a critical concern. So much so that Andrew Yu made it clear that the future of the training depended on it. Over the previous year the churches had made a big investment in the FTTT and hadn't seen any fruit. The church in Taipei was complaining that with all these great statistics, all these people being saved and baptized, they hadn't noticed any increase. This was such a high priority that we were put into various teams (I already have described my team a little), given the charge to find a solution, and given complete free reign (this may not have applied to all of the chinese trainees, but it did apply to most of the foreigners still there).

In December I went to the campus we were assigned and started working about 2 weeks before my coworkers joined me. The leading brother in our group should have been the brother from Austin, he had been here the first year, he had been the most successful with door knocking among all of the trainees, and he was training the saints in the gospel. But he saw the work I had built in two weeks and wanted to contribute. I told him that he was clearly the most talented at door knocking, if he would just continue with that and send his gospel contacts to the Bible study that would be the best help of all. So he did that and my Bible study was always standing room only. He should get a lot of credit for that. But, we know that door knocking alone did not result in abiding fruit and that is what he was doing. That was not the solution.

The American sister was located in the meeting hall nearest to this campus. She asked how she could help. This was an all male campus, there wasn't any need to send out gospel teams with a sister, and since I worked at nights it would be very inconvenient for the Austin brother to have her along (he would then need a third saint) so I told her the biggest need was a home meeting in the church. Now to her credit she arranged home meetings for every single day, Monday through Friday. Every day she showed up at the Bible study and took whoever wanted to go with her. She was great at getting different saints to open their homes so that there was always a home to go to. She felt like she didn't know what to fellowship with them, but I told her I didn't think that was an issue. Between the gospel and Bible study they had heard a lot, now it was time for them to speak. Also, the saints whose homes they were in would also fellowship. This sister very quickly began to appear like a mother hen with five or six new gospel contacts following her at all times. I think she was gifted and also grew in function over the two or three months. But, again, what she did was to ferry people that wanted to go to a home meeting to the home.

My point is this, LSM and the training had a very big problem, our team solved it in 3 months. Of the three of us I felt I knew as much as anyone as to how to solve this problem of abiding fruit. When they came to me they asked if there was anything they could do to help. I said no. That was it, no more fellowship about how we were having great success. They asked the sister and she said she would like some help leading the home meetings. That is where a whole series of books on leading home meetings came from.

In my opinion they were not genuinely interested in how to get abiding fruit, what they were interested in was how could the LSM publish more books. To their credit they didn't force anything down our throat. If I had said that "the secret to our success was the RcV footnotes" you can be sure I would have been asked to give that testimony a hundred times in various meetings, etc. But since my testimony was "I didn't use any LSM books" the topic was dropped like a lead balloon. As a scientist and as a Christian I find that to reflect poorly on the LSM.

However, I think your characterization of a propaganda center and branding the saints is way too superficial. You are forgetting they were operating on a shoestring. They didn't have the funds to exercise much control at all. Instead we were put into groups of about 6, told to read a chapter and then fellowship among ourselves.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

However, I think your characterization of a propaganda center and branding the saints is way too superficial. You are forgetting they were operating on a shoestring. They didn't have the funds to exercise much control at all. Instead we were put into groups of about 6, told to read a chapter and then fellowship among ourselves.

Was this still the situation in Taipei when you left in '96?

[awareness]

That sort of answered my question. Thanks ....
--------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I hesitate to answer this question because I know it is merely my opinion and no doubt the LSM head honchos would deny and contradict it. But as long as everyone understands that I am merely giving my personal opinion because I was asked, and that I state clearly up front I was not a "decider" or even involved in fellowship leading up to key decisions, in the LSM I will give my opinion.