The LCS Factor

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

OBW my original question was: "what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?"

So far we have heard many answers but the weakest for me so far is a former leader claiming no role for the LCS. No cause and effect relationship. I consider that to be a cop out. A child cannot grow up in a Lee obsessed or any other obsessed environment and not have an effect on their behaviors. Call it addiction, call it idolatry, call it obsession, do the footnotes with the usual disclaimers that it doesn't include everybody...but at the end of the day Lee and those leaders and parents who abdicated are accountable. Weaseling around it just feeds into the irresponsibility that is part and parcel of the LCS.

Men who think Lee is the acting god and wasted millions on building white elephants and convinced people to give their life savings for Lee's businesses and covered up for Lee's son and had their entire agendas wrapped up in Lee and openly bullied people along with Lee and supported his bullying at the same time were fathers and husbands. Are we to believe that they checked their irresponsibility and obsessions at the front door every night when they came home? I don't believe that at all. And anyone who does is a patsy.

[SpeakersCorner]

Everything in the LC was more intense than in general Christianity, especially during the 70's. The result is you'll see more intense successes as well as failures. This thread has certainly documented some of the intense failures of the LC and its practices. But I would like to say a word for the intense successes.

The biggest success: that it produced a bunch of Christians who really deeply love and pursue the Lord. This very crowd here on the forum is proof. The brothers and sisters I know in the LC are, by and large, as purpose-driven a crowd as Rick Warren could ever hope for. We're idealistic, given Jesus-lovers. You could argue that we'd have been that way anyway, but the LC experience was the common thread we all had and it deserves some credit.

For all the mistakes of the LC I do believe a lot of lives were touched in a white-hot way by God. Sure there was some idolatry. Sure there was some abuse. Maybe there was even some addiction (there, are you happy DJ?). But you could find all these same things in the Children of Israel's experience as they trekked the Wilderness ... and the Lord called that his honeymoon with them (Jer. 2:1-2).*

While I have memories that make me weep at times, I feel like my experience through the LC was glorious: the good, the bad, and the ugly. Something sho' happened in these decades and to me that something was gold.

SC

*Okay, here's my proof: " 1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: 'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown."

[Matt Anderson]

Well, we know we've made some headway when SC comes out with a balancing word!

Just kidding with you SC. Nice Jeremiah reference. I've never seen that one before. It's a good one. It's good for us that God is big and merciful enough to see them through the lense of Jereremiah 2 while also knowing about the idolatry they committed in the wilderness (Acts 7:41-43).

Matt

[Paul Cox]

Hi SC,

With all due respect (see how nice I can be ) I’m not completely convinced that what you have stated is altogether accurate.

Since leaving the Local Church, I've found out that there are far more genuine seeking Christians "out there" than I ever believed before. In fact, we were led to believe there weren't that many genuine seekers in "Christianity."

Also, it isn't strange to find a greater concentration of genuine seekers in aberrant groups, which are claiming to have the "vision" that all the rest of "poor, poor, fallen Christianity" doesn’t have, than in most other moderate groups. They seem to be a magnet for people who have an inward sense that they want to give their all to God. Why God allows so many of his true seekers to end up in these groups is still a mystery to me.

Roger

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Roger

Also, it isn't strange to find a greater concentration of genuine seekers in aberrant groups, which are claiming to have the "vision" that all the rest of "poor, poor, fallen Christianity" doesn’t have, than in most other moderate groups. They seem to be a magnet for people who have an inward sense that they want to give their all to God. Why God allows so many of his true seekers to end up in these groups is still a mystery to me.

Because it's easier to fall into an elitist (to hell with those other guys) idealistic (we want the best, we are the best) group which enforces conformity (thinking less than optional) than it is to truly love, cherish, receive and minister to all people one encounters. The former simply requires checking out of society while you await the mothership; the latter a real walk with God.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Dedicated Christians who deeply love and pursue the Lord do not neglect their children. Does the Lord neglect children?

Does the Lord sue for real estate and quarantine people unjustly?

Some say Lee taught them to love the Lord more etc. Let me suggest if at the same time you learned that you should neglect your children, sue each other, etc for the sake of the church, ministry etc. then he did not teach you to love the Lord. That is not loving the Lord.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because it's easier to fall into an elitist (to hell with those other guys) idealistic (we want the best, we are the best) group which enforces conformity (thinking less than optional) than it is to truly love, cherish, receive and minister to all people one encounters. The former simply requires checking out of society while you await the mothership; the latter a real walk with God.

Wow!

I wasn't sure how to respond to that. But I think you may be right. That means that all those strong stances for the LC are proof, at some level, of their desire for God.

But it also questions something about whether they truly understand what desiring God is since they lost sight of the great commandment.

Do we have a paradox? Or at leat a conundrum?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

Wow!

I wasn't sure how to respond to that. But I think you may be right. That means that all those strong stances for the LC are proof, at some level, of their desire for God.

But it also questions something about whether they truly understand what desiring God is since they lost sight of the great commandment.

Do we have a paradox? Or at leat a conundrum?

No, I don't think so. I just think it's easier to leave the world than to be sent into it. It's easier to sit around the campfire and sing Ohio State fight songs than it is to go play Michigan or, even more, get ready to play Michigan. It's easier to be God's best than to take God's best to the world.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

No, I don't think so. I just think it's easier to leave the world than to be sent into it. It's easier to sit around the campfire and sing Ohio State fight songs than it is to go play Michigan or, even more, get ready to play Michigan. It's easier to be God's best than to take God's best to the world.

Whoa ... wait a minute folks!

Nobody's singing up here!

Things are really getting personal.

I think Brutus Buckeye is ready to trounce those Wolverines.

Let's stop talking. We want Longhorns for lunch!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

No, I don't think so. I just think it's easier to leave the world than to be sent into it. It's easier to sit around the campfire and sing Ohio State fight songs than it is to go play Michigan or, even more, get ready to play Michigan. It's easier to be God's best than to take God's best to the world.

I do understand. But isn't there a contradiction when you are desiring after the person who would have you do one thing but you do another? Doesn't it suggest that they actually desire something else? A different Christ (as abugian would have said it) or at least something other than Christ (as Matt is saying it)? A Christ that goes to the wilderness for more than 40 days — in fact, more like forever. One that doesn't care about your neighbor. One that doesn't care about the kind of justice that the Jesus of the gospels preached.

Sounds like they seek a God created in their image rather than the other way around. Oh. Uh. Well. Uh. My Goodnaise! (Think WL in a training meeting) Sounds like idolatry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Because it's easier to fall into an elitist (to hell with those other guys) idealistic (we want the best, we are the best) group which enforces conformity (thinking less than optional) than it is to truly love, cherish, receive and minister to all people one encounters. The former simply requires checking out of society while you await the mothership; the latter a real walk with God.

In the beginning ... at least for me ... back in the days of old ... we in Cleveland were not elitist ... but ... yes ... we were idealistic ... we did stress Christ ... only Christ ... all in all forever ... and I never thought ... really thought ... I mean "think" ... so much in all my life, in fact I never was sober ... that long ... in all my adult life ... but ... regardless of what others think ... things changed ... dramatically ... for the worse ... as the influences from Anaheim grew ... and the books against us ... think "Mindbenders" ... became popular ... and the pouring out of the Spirit ...as in all of the Jesus movement ... during those days ... declined.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Roger

Why God allows so many of his true seekers to end up in these groups is still a mystery to me. Roger

Here is a possible explanation given by Jessie Penn Lewis. Her book War on the Saints was written because of what happened after a major outpouring of the Spirit in her time:

"In the special onslaught of the deceiver, which will come upon the whole of the true Church of Christ at the close of the age, through the army of deceiving spirits, there are some more than others who are specially attacked by the powers of darkness, who need light upon his deceptive workings, so that they may pass through the trial of the Last Hour, and be counted worthy to escape that hour of greater trial, which is coming upon the earth (Luke 21: 34-36; Rev. 3: 10).

For among those who are members of the Body of Christ, there are degrees of growth, and therefore degrees of testing, permitted by God, Who provides a way of escape for him who knows his need, and, by watching unto prayer, takes heed lest he fall (1 Cor. 10: 12, 13). He is the Sovereign Lord of the Universe, and Satan is set his limit with every redeemed believer (see Job 1: 12; 2: 6; Luke 22: 31).

Some of the members of Christ are yet in the stage of babyhood, and others do not even know the initial reception of the Holy Spirit. To such this book has not much to say, as they are among the weaker ones who need the "milk of the Word."

But there are others, who may be described as the advance guard of the Church of Christ, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost, or who are seeking that Baptism; honest and earnest believers, who sigh and cry over the powerlessness of the true Church of Christ, and who grieve that her witness is so ineffective; that Spiritism and Christian Science, and other "isms," are sweeping thousands into their deceptive errors, little thinking, that, as they themselves go forward into the spiritual realm, the deceiver, who has misled others, has special wiles prepared for them, so that he might render ineffective their aggressive power against him.

These are the ones who are in danger of the special deception of the counterfeit "Christs," and false prophets, and the dazzling lure of "signs and wonders," and "fire out of heaven," planned to meet their longing for the mighty interposition of God in the darkness settling upon the earth, but who do not recognize that such workings of the spirits of evil are possible, and so are unprepared to meet them.

These are the ones, also, who are recklessly ready to follow the Lord at any cost, and yet do not realize their unpreparedness for contest with the spiritual powers of the unseen world, as they press on into fuller spiritual things.

Believers who are full of mental conceptions wrought into them in earlier years, which hinder the Spirit of God from preparing them for all they will meet as they press on to their coveted goal; conceptions which also hinder others from giving them, out of the Scriptures, much that they need to know of the spiritual world into which they are so blindly advancing. Conceptions which lull them into a false security, and give ground for, and even bring about, that very deception which enables the deceiver to find them an easy prey."

[Thankful Jane]

also (from War on the Saints by JP Lewis):

CAN "HONEST SOULS" BE DECEIVED?

"One prevailing idea, which such believers have deeply embedded in their minds, is that "honest seekers after God" will not be allowed to be deceived. That this is one of Satan's lies, to lure such seekers into a false position of safety, is proved by the history of the Church during the past two thousand years, for every "wile of error" which has borne sad fruit throughout this period, first laid hold of devoted believers who were "honest souls." The errors among groups of such believers, some well known to the present generation, all began among "honest" children of God, baptized with the Holy Ghost; and all so sure that, knowing the side-tracking of others before them, they would never be caught by the wiles of Satan. Yet they, too, have been deceived by lying spirits, counterfeiting the workings of God in the higher ranges of the spiritual life.

Among such devoted believers, lying spirits have worked on their determination literally to obey the Scriptures, and by misuse of the letter of the written Word, have pushed them into phases of unbalanced truth, with resulting erroneous practices. Many who have suffered for their adherence to these "Biblical commands," firmly believe that they are martyrs suffering for Christ. The world calls these devoted ones "cranks," and "fanatics," yet they give evidence of highest devotion and love to the Person of the Lord, and could be delivered, if they but understood why the powers of darkness deceived them, and the way of freedom from their power.

The aftermath of the Revival in Wales, which was a true work of God, revealed numbers of "honest souls" swept off their feet by evil supernatural powers, which they were not able to discern from the true working of God. And later still than the Welsh Revival, there have been other "movements," with large numbers of earnest servants of God swept into deception, through the wiles of deceiving spirits counterfeiting the workings of God; all "honest souls," deceived by the subtle foe, and certain to be led on into still deeper deception, notwithstanding their honesty and earnestness, if they are not awakened to "return to soberness" and recovery out of the snare of the devil into which they have fallen (2 Tim. 2: 26)"

[Thankful Jane]

and lastly (more from War on the Saints):

FAITHFULNESS TO LIGHT NOT SUFFICIENT SAFEGUARD

AGAINST DECEPTION

"The children of God need to know that to be true in motive, and faithful up to light, is not sufficient safeguard against deception; and that it is not safe for them to rely upon their "honesty of purpose" as guaranteeing protection from the enemy's wiles, instead of taking heed to the warnings of God's Word, and watching unto prayer.
Christians who are true and faithful, and honest, can be deceived by Satan, and his deceiving spirits, for the following reasons:--

( a) When a man becomes a child of God, by the regenerating power of the Spirit, giving him new life as he trusts in the atoning work of Christ, he does not at the same time receive fulness of knowledge, either of God, himself, or the devil.

( b) The mind which by nature is darkened (Eph. 4: 18), and under a veil created by Satan (2 Cor. 4: 4) is only renewed, and the veil destroyed, up to the extent that the light of truth penetrates it, and according to the measure in which the man is able to apprehend it.

( c) "Deception" has to do with the mind, and it means a wrong thought admitted to the mind, under the deception that it is truth. Since "deception" is based on ignorance, and not on the moral character; a Christian who is "true" and "faithful" up to the knowledge he has, must be open to deception in the sphere where he is ignorant of the "devices" of the devil (2 Cor. 2: 11), and what he is able to do. A "true" and "faithful" Christian is liable to be "deceived" by the devil because of his ignorance.

( d) The thought that God will protect a believer from being deceived if he is true and faithful, is in itself a "deception," because it throws a man off guard, and ignores the fact that there are conditions on the part of the believer which have to be fulfilled for God's working. God does not do anything instead of a man, but by the man's co-operation with Him; neither does He undertake to make up for a man's ignorance, when He has provided knowledge for him which will prevent him being deceived.

( e) Christ would not have warned His disciples "Take heed . . be not deceived" if there had been no danger of deception, or if God had undertaken to keep them from deception apart from their "taking heed," and their knowledge of such danger.
The knowledge that it is possible to be deceived, keeps the mind open to truth, and light from God; and is one of the primary conditions for the keeping power of God; whereas a closed mind to light and truth, is a certain guarantee of deception by Satan at his earliest opportunity."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

One prevailing idea, which such believers have deeply embedded in their minds, is that "honest seekers after God" will not be allowed to be deceived. That this is one of Satan's lies, to lure such seekers into a false position of safety, is proved by the history of the Church during the past two thousand years, for every "wile of error" which has borne sad fruit throughout this period, first laid hold of devoted believers who were "honest souls." The errors among groups of such believers, some well known to the present generation, all began among "honest" children of God, baptized with the Holy Ghost; and all so sure that, knowing the side-tracking of others before them, they would never be caught by the wiles of Satan. Yet they, too, have been deceived by lying spirits, counterfeiting the workings of God in the higher ranges of the spiritual life.

At my salvation, I was given 3 exceedingly precious gifts --- the love for Jesus, the love for His word, and the love for His people --- who could do such a thing in my heart?

My testimony -- the radical change in my life -- amazed literally hundreds of people -- nobody could even recognize me -- and you want me to believe that "HONEST SOULS CAN BE DECEIVED?" Before my salvation, I had no honesty to speak of! I was saved out of deceit!

I prefer to die for my faith, than to question the reality of Jesus Christ in my heart.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At my salvation, I was given 3 exceedingly precious gifts --- the love for Jesus, the love for His word, and the love for His people --- who could do such a thing in my heart?

My testimony -- the radical change in my life -- amazed literally hundreds of people -- nobody could even recognize me -- and you want me to believe that "HONEST SOULS CAN BE DECEIVED?" Before my salvation, I had no honesty to speak of! I was saved out of deceit!

I prefer to die for my faith, than to question the reality of Jesus Christ in my heart.

Dear Ohio,

This is what Jessie Penn Lewis said, not me. (Just want to make sure you caught that.)

I'm not sure what you're saying. She is not talking about salvation or Jesus Christ being in your heart, but about what can happen to those who are intensely seeking and very serious about following God after they are saved. The point is that Satan is afraid of such people because of the impact they can have on His dark kingdom. He uses his wiles to trick them and render them ineffective.

Jesus warned us to take heed that we not be deceived. Her point is that just having good intentions as believers does not guarantee we will not be deceived. We have to take heed by watching and praying and always staying aware of the possiblity of deception.

Hey, I just put this out because it offers a plausible explanation for why real seekers sometimes get caught in the devil's snare.

I didn't quote her whole book obviously, so there is a lot more to it.

Whatever the enemy does, God uses to grow us up. Part of that growing up is being delivered from deception and coming to an understanding of how we got deceived.

Nothing personal meant ... I think you misunderstood, maybe ???

Peace, Love, Joy

Thankful Jane

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At my salvation, I was given 3 exceedingly precious gifts --- the love for Jesus, the love for His word, and the love for His people --- who could do such a thing in my heart?

My testimony -- the radical change in my life -- amazed literally hundreds of people -- nobody could even recognize me -- and you want me to believe that "HONEST SOULS CAN BE DECEIVED?" Before my salvation, I had no honesty to speak of! I was saved out of deceit!

I prefer to die for my faith, than to question the reality of Jesus Christ in my heart.

Absolutely, yes, you need to believe honest souls can be and are deceived. We are born into a deceived world. When God shines light into our hearts he does not instantly eradicate all of our deception. The light just begins to dawn. As we enter into a true and obedient walk in faith before Him the light continues to spread. We also have to get to know the Word. Our deceived state slowly but surely begins to be replaced with a renewed mind that can see who the Lord really is. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't even happen in a lifetime. The measure of light that the Lord gives us is what we need.

So, yes, you should strongly consider beliving that honest souls can be and are deceived.

I think this can be backed up by the Word of God, both Old and New Testament.

Matt

P.S. You've actually told us about your experience of being deceived by leadership in the LC on these forums until you started reading 'Speaking the Truth in Love' and other materials.

P.S.S. Were you deceived about meeting the Lord. No. Were you experiencing a mixture of the Lord and demonic influences in the early days of the LC. Absolutely yes. There's proof of it and especially in Lee who was very deceitful (even in the early 60's, into the 70's and beyond).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

The biggest success: that it produced a bunch of Christians who really deeply love and pursue the Lord. This very crowd here on the forum is proof. The brothers and sisters I know in the LC are, by and large, as purpose-driven a crowd as Rick Warren could ever hope for. We're idealistic, given Jesus-lovers. You could argue that we'd have been that way anyway, but the LC experience was the common thread we all had and it deserves some credit.

SC, that's what I'm talking about!

How do we deal with the fact that nearly all the LC saints were the most dedicated and given bunch of Christians ever assembled.

That's why I put all the blame on the leaders, and not the saints.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do we deal with the fact that nearly all the LC saints were the most dedicated and given bunch of Christians ever assembled.

That's why I put all the blame on the leaders, and not the saints.

What you describe here Ohio is one of the core reasons why it was so easy for many to fall into the trap of idolatry. Zealotry and dedication that is not set in the right direction goes in the wrong direction even if it is done unknowingly.

Take Saul/Paul. Before he was such a dedicated and zealotrous christian, what was he? A really dedicated and a zealotrous Jew!!! He was very dedicated, just misguided until he had the right "vision".

Idolatry in a system of Christianity doesn't work if only the leaders do it. Sorry, but I have to continue to disagree with you on this one.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

What you describe here Ohio is one of the core reasons why it was so easy for many to fall into the trap of idolatry. Zealotry and dedication that is not set in the right direction goes in the wrong direction even if it is done unknowingly.

Take Saul/Paul. Before he was such a dedicated and zealotrous christian, what was he? A really dedicated and a zealotrous Jew!!! He was very dedicated, just misguided until he had the right "vision".

Idolatry in a system of Christianity doesn't work if only the leaders do it. Sorry, but I have to continue to disagree with you on this one.

Matt

Don't compare me to "zealotrous" Saul ... or today's suicide bombers ... nosiree !!! ... back in the beginning ... we were passionate for the right thing -- Christ -- Christ -- only Christ -- but that time was short lived for me -- and for many others ... then MaxR came around ... sent by headquarters ... bringing the works of the flesh ... and rarely ... only rarely ... did we taste that move of the Spirit again.

[Cal]

The lesson of the local church is that even the best teaching can lead astray.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio Christ? Christ? Christ? What does that really mean and what does it look like in application on the ground so to speak? Because my impression of the LCS is noise noise noise. Lot's of God-talk not much God.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Everything in the LC was more intense than in general Christianity, especially during the 70's. The result is you'll see more intense successes as well as failures. This thread has certainly documented some of the intense failures of the LC and its practices. But I would like to say a word for the intense successes.

The biggest success: that it produced a bunch of Christians who really deeply love and pursue the Lord. This very crowd here on the forum is proof. The brothers and sisters I know in the LC are, by and large, as purpose-driven a crowd as Rick Warren could ever hope for. We're idealistic, given Jesus-lovers. You could argue that we'd have been that way anyway, but the LC experience was the common thread we all had and it deserves some credit.

For all the mistakes of the LC I do believe a lot of lives were touched in a white-hot way by God. Sure there was some idolatry. Sure there was some abuse. Maybe there was even some addiction (there, are you happy DJ?). But you could find all these same things in the Children of Israel's experience as they trekked the Wilderness ... and the Lord called that his honeymoon with them (Jer. 2:1-2).*

While I have memories that make me weep at times, I feel like my experience through the LC was glorious: the good, the bad, and the ugly. Something sho' happened in these decades and to me that something was gold.

SC

*Okay, here's my proof: " 1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: 'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown."

SC you stated so well what I would have liked to have said.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Hope]

dj,

You have assured us that you were never in a local church but have a friend who was and have an interest in the group etc. Since you were never there but would like to have plenty to say, it would seem you would want to get as many facts as you could and hear from many regarding their experiences and thoughts. Then again maybe not.

I have listed your post 2533 and quotes from my posts #s 13 & 56.

Originally Posted by djohnson

OBW my original question was: "what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?"

So far we have heard many answers but the weakest for me so far is a former leader claiming no role for the LCS. No cause and effect relationship. I consider that to be a cop out. A child cannot grow up in a Lee obsessed or any other obsessed environment and not have an effect on their behaviors. Call it addiction, call it idolatry, call it obsession, do the footnotes with the usual disclaimers that it doesn't include everybody...but at the end of the day Lee and those leaders and parents who abdicated are accountable. Weaseling around it just feeds into the irresponsibility that is part and parcel of the LCS.

Men who think Lee is the acting god and wasted millions on building white elephants and convinced people to give their life savings for Lee's businesses and covered up for Lee's son and had their entire agendas wrapped up in Lee and openly bullied people along with Lee and supported his bullying at the same time were fathers and husbands. Are we to believe that they checked their irresponsibility and obsessions at the front door every night when they came home? I don't believe that at all. And anyone who does is a patsy.

# 13
There is profit in seeking the Lord to learn from our short comings and to course correct but be careful not to be drawn into the devils game of accuse, accuse accuse.

In the LCS there was a real lack of vision regarding the very crucial and critical role of the family in God's plan and purpose. Sadly, in the LCS, many parents made serious mistakes and did not receive needed healthy instruction regarding raising children for the Lord.

#56
The main leadership had very serious flaws in teaching and in practice. Nell declared that there was a class system. She stated that I could get away with behavior that a single sister could not. In the Body of Christ there should never be such a thing. I desire to be rescued from all my bad practices and am more than willing to have my specific faults pointed out and condemned. I believe that the specific bad fruit of some of the leaders and churches should be pointed out. I want to know the truth, both the clear biblical truth and the truth of the history. But I also am aware of the enemy’s practice of cursing. Satan, the accuser of the brethern, will accuse in broad sweeping charges. The Holy Spirit shines light in a very specific way and not only convicts of sin but offers forgiveness and a fresh start.


dj, please help me out. Where have I declared "no role for the LCS. No cause and effect relationship."

In addition to getting the whole truth, it is important to be accurate. You take way to many liberties.

Hope, Don Rutledge