Is it the Message, or the Men?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, this works as a cold-eyed analysis from outside. But it doesn't work as an explanation of how they really think. I mean, do you really believe the LCers, even the leadership, sit around and say, "Well, we know our doctrines are crap, see? So let's keep the focus on Nee and Lee as ministers of the age so the members don't analyze our crappy doctrines too closely."

Really?

You may be explaining how things work, but you still are not explaining fundamental motivations.

You may not think they consider this. But if you are among the theological leaders of the group and you can't start from zero — no magic overlay to use to redefine what it all means, etc. — and you want to get to some of those teachings, you need to have an authority that you can point to that makes it real. The whole Spiritual Authority teaching is circular. You need someone to walk cavalierly through the Bible and devise a hierarchy that is far beyond anything intended by the passages being used (abused?) so that you can have a teaching that allows someone to walk cavalierly through the Bible devising teachings (including the hierarchy) that no one else can come up with.

If it is just about "God's purpose is more than Heaven," you don't need Nee or Lee. That is a rather commonly-held teaching that is right there in plain sight.

If it is just about "Christ lives in me," you don't need Nee or Lee.

If you need Babylon to become Christianity so that the LRC can return to "Jerusalem" and be the remnant, then you need someone to stroll cavalierly through the Bible disregarding many things actually written, along with the obvious metaphorical error of aligning Babylon with being God's people. Of course, Nee and Lee aren't the first ones to use that erroneous metaphor. There are a handful of small, marginal sects (now and back through the years) that have created "remnant" theologies. And they all need to misread the Bible.

I don't think the current brass has the guts to stand up and simply declare that whatever they are saying is true on its own.

But that does not mean that I think they are just frauds that don't believe what they are saying. I've seen the look in BP's eyes as he speaks (many years ago). He is a believer. He buys it. You can talk about RK's theological training. But I think he buys it. But they both realize that if there is not truth in a hierarchy of man under God in which someone rises to the level of speaking new things for God that don't completely square-up with the existing scripture, then they are thin ice. They do not see the way for them to simply say that these things are so.

They need Nee to have been that pinnacle person years ago. (And since Nee has been heavily respected by much of Christianity, his word might carry at least a little weight with some.) They need someone with a history that puts them in line to speak new things that have not been heard before. If Nee makes the cut, then Lee might just be the rational next-in-line. That keeps "God's economy" on track, along with several other newer things. (I can't remember, but is the "Jesus became the Spirit" thing originally Lee's . . . or Nee's . . . or someone else's?).

But if you do not like that reason. Then the motivation can only be that they really do think that he is/was the MOTA, God's deputy authority, the Oracle of God, the one who writes new scripture (effectively, though never spoken out loud as such).

They really are the personality cult that awareness has been so fond of pointing out . . . . And it might be true.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

They really are the personality cult that awareness has been so fond of pointing out . . . . And it might be true.

That would be "personalities cult," as in two : Nee and Lee.

I read other authors while in the local church, that were mentioned by Lee.

But many times I got the cross made out of fingers by some brothers, dispelling the devil in them (tree of knowledge).

But I never got the finger cross while reading Nee and Lee.

So the local church is a personalities cult : of Nee, & mini-Nee ; and now the personalities of the Blended Bros ; that are possessed by the personalities of both Nee & Lee.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But if you do not like that reason. Then the motivation can only be that they really do think that he is/was the MOTA, God's deputy authority, the Oracle of God, the one who writes new scripture (effectively, though never spoken out loud as such).

They really are the personality cult that awareness has been so fond of pointing out . . . . And it might be true.

I think it's a combination of the two. And the two support the weakness of each other. When Lee's theology seems compelling and unique, they think, "See? He is clearly special." When the theology seems weak, they think, "Doesn't matter, because he's the MOTA."

It's circular. Why is he the MOTA? Because of his esoteric theology. Why is his theology so special, even to the point you swallow things that make no sense? Because he's the MOTA.

But, as I said, no decent theology requires the imprimatur of a special minister. The theology should stand on its own. Lee's really doesn't. So when it sags they say, "How can you question the MOTA?" I don't think they necessarily do this cynically. It's just the self-perpetuating mindset of these types of groups.

But, to my main point again, if LCers were really honest they would admit that all the MOTA claptrap is a crutch. If they want their ideas to prevail in the arena of ideas, they should force themselves to see if they can stand on their own. Normal people aren't going to buy this MOTA crap, only the Kool-Aid drinkers. Well, swaying the Kool-Aid drinkers is easy, it's the other 98% that are a problem.

That's basically what LSM offers. A theology for Kool-Aid drinkers. I think Lee was onto some things. I said that. But all Lee, all the time, as a main course? No, thank you very much.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think it's a combination of the two. And the two support the weakness of each other. When Lee's theology seems compelling and unique, they think, "See? He is clearly special." When the theology seems weak, they think, "Doesn't matter, because he's the MOTA."

It's circular. Why is he the MOTA? Because of his esoteric theology. Why is his theology so special, even to the point you swallow things that make no sense? Because he's the MOTA.

But, as I said, no decent theology requires the imprimatur of a special minister. The theology should stand on its own. Lee's really doesn't. So when it sags they say, "How can you question the MOTA?" I don't think they necessarily do this cynically. It's just the self-perpetuating mindset of these types of groups.

In a vacuum, Lee's reputation as the Recovery MOTA was certainly adequate for him to introduce all sorts of esoteric theology.

When the rebellion of the late 80's exploded on the scene, not even Lee's special MOTA status in the Recovery was adequate for survival. He needed numerous well-respected leaders to prop him up, close their eyes to criminal unrighteousness, and be willing to fabricate lies for him.

It was basically the Texas contingency who came to his rescue. Had more fair-minded leaders been willing to examine the statements made by Ingalls, Mallon, and others, the Recovery would have come crashing down under the weight of unrighteousness.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Normal people aren't going to buy this MOTA crap, only the Kool-Aid drinkers.

This is tangential but I thought I'd remark. Y'all know that I'm not shy about using the word cult or the term Kool-Aid, even tho I've gotten blow-back for doing so, cuz of the risk of turning people off and away.

While I was looking into Sarah Palin's new web TV channel called Rogue TV I saw an interview with former CNN president Jon Klein and former NBC entertainment chairman Jeff Gaspin, who are starting this new form of TV. They mentioned that they were looking for contributors like Palin who had Super Fans.

So maybe to make it more palatable to the LCers, that might visit us, we should use the term Super Fans, for Leeites. Since they are Kool-Aid drinkers they'll prolly take it as a compliment.

Now I need to work on a palatable word for the word cult. So far I'm stumped. Thanks to Mel Porter I saw "cult," and I can't unsee it.

[InChristAlone]

Probably, the LRC’s hymns are worth a special thread. But I came across this hymn a few days ago and, if brothers don’t mind, I’ll share it here.

I have been to different churches, and some of them thought that their teachings were superior to others. However, only in the LRC I saw how pride, condemnation, and delusion can be turned into a hymn. The irony of it is that their statement (hymn) has nothing to do with reality.

HYMN 828

The “churches” here below, so narrow bound,
Reach not the hungry throngs which us surround;
They run partway with truth, but miss the goal.
Earth-vision blurred and dim, their eyes doth hold—
But broken gleams have they of radiance gold;
Too dazzling is the splendor of the whole.

Brothers with brothers have not all one heart,
In wrath they turn away and walk apart,
Who from one stream of life had common birth.
What fight for forms! O’er doctrines what vain strife!
Instead together sharing God’s one life,
Who worshipped is by heaven and by earth.

“Where is the truth?” I asked; for this I longed:
None answered right ’mid all the answering throng;
For ever side by side lay light and shade.
“Where is,” I cried, “the one communion pure?
Where is the Church in which, clear-traced and sure,
The Spirit’s very likeness is portrayed?”

So sought I long, and hopeless was my quest;
These eyes grew dim and blind and found no rest,
Till God’s touch opened them, and I was freed.
I found the Spirit’s Church in souls made one
In this, that they in troth to Christ had come—
His Bride, to follow where the cross may lead.

Thus when I see this small world’s narrow thought,
Behold the brother not with brother brought,
Yet serving Christ—as each one deemeth right—
Ah, then a voice from realms of glory calls,
Where the last veil is rent and earthward falls,
And where God’s love, eternal, burneth bright.

No more we put that query without end,
To which self-chosen church our feet did trend—
What doctrines we believed, what sacred rites.
In Christ we were in bonds that nought could break;
Who, by His cross and death, do all forsake,
Such as were far asunder He unites.

No longer does one heed mere formal phrase,
Or seek for others’ creeds through winding maze,
For in Himself was truth made manifest.
And out of every tongue and every land
He formed one Church to meet His own demand—
His Body, where His fulness is expressed.


Lyrics: Sister Eva of Friedenshort, adapted
Music: T. Willey

http://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/828

The author of the lyrics is Eva von Winkler (Sister Eva of Friedenshort). I googled her name and found these links:

http://www.jesusloversincleveland.or...0/hymnsEva.htm
http://www.pawcreek.org/testimonies/eva-von-winkler (Most informative article)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_von_Tiele-Winckler (in German)

They say that this sister would not let sectarian attitudes or doctrinal differences hinder her fellowship with other saints. Maybe but I find her lyrics sectarian. I don’t know where WN and WL picked up that hymn. Probably, from sisters (deaconesses) that "Mother Eve" sent to China to serve with the China Inland Mission.

Anyway, I just want to say that I was surprised to find this hymn in the LRC’s hymnal. The lyrics didn’t sound true to me, since they don’t stand the test of time. A song like hymn 828 is a typical manipulation for cults.

Speaking about the MOTA, WL was partially right. Of course, he was not a minister of the age and he had nothing to do with Luther. But his cult’s roots are in Europe, in sects and heresies that came to China from the Old World. WN and WL just adopted and developed heresies to an extreme. So it’s not “Minister/s” but “Heretic/s.” Then the HOTA would be a better acronym. Well, not the best since there is a bunch of other harmful sects and cults.

[Cal]

Ultimately, people have to make up their own minds about the LC and why they choose to remain in it. I'm sure there are many who feel that a good work is being done there. At some point, however, thoughtful Christians have to ask themselves if the priorities of the group are not in conflict with its stated mission, which is to spread their vision. It is my contention that seeking to preserve false reputations of Nee and Lee, erasing and doctoring history, is counter to that mission in its purest form.

The LC has shown it can spread to a certain degree, but only to the extent they lift up Nee and Lee and cause people to revere and fear to contradict them. This has been quite effective with a tiny minority, but it will never be effective with a significant number. Once you move outside the fringe, you encounter people who expect a message that can stand up to a challenge. Telling these people not to dare contradict the Minister of the Age will be met with dumbfoundedness, if not laughter and derision.

The LC, in the end, will never be more than a blip because it never set out on a path to be anything but that. When push came to shove, ironically they chose the easy path. Instead of stepping up into the messy real world where the arena of ideas is a level playing field and nothing is guaranteed including respect for pet doctrines, they chose the path of continual preaching to whatever choir would not ask questions.

LCers will tell themselves that they are the remnant, the chosen few willing to pay the price. But in fact, they didn't pay the price. Paying the price would have meant being willing to be completely honest about everything and live with the consequences.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Ultimately, people have to make up their own minds about the LC and why they choose to remain in it. I'm sure there are many who feel that a good work is being done there. At some point, however, thoughtful Christians have to ask themselves if the priorities of the group are not in conflict wit the stated mission, which is to spread their vision. It is my contention that seeking to preserve false reputations of Nee and Lee, erasing and doctoring history, is counter to that mission in its purest form.

LCers will tell themselves that they are the remnant, the chosen few willing to pay the price. But in fact, they didn't pay the price. Paying the price would have meant being willing to be completely honest about everything and live with the consequences.

Recently I have been in touch with a few old friends who expressed an interest in attending Ron Kangas' pending conference in Cleveland. They would say that they paid a hefty price to pursue the Lord in the LC's. But, since they were not remotely involved with the activities in Anaheim, they would disagree that they have any responsibility to dig into those details or make them known. They also would say that it is all about "the message" and not the man, since Lee is dead.

Ironically, it now seems to be LSM which stresses Christ, the word, and the LC's, while life under the direction of TC in Cleveland has become all about "The Work." Quite a reversal from the rhetoric of the past.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They would say that they paid a hefty price to pursue the Lord in the LC's.

Well, everyone pays some price for whatever they do. The price I was talking about is the one you pay to do the right thing.

But, sice they were not remotely involved with the activities in Anaheim, they would disagree that they have any responsibility to dig into those details or make them known.

I'm not talking about digging anything up, I'm talking about acknowledging what is undeniable, and being open to acknowledge what is likely. In other words, being honest and responsible.

They also would say that it is all about "the message" and not the man, since Lee is dead.

The first admission of any LCer should be that the MOTA teaching was designed to control and manipulate people, and to cover up weaknesses in the message. If they can't admit that, there is no point in discussing the message with them in the first place, because to the degree they believe MOTA to that degree (at least) they will be irrational.

Originally Posted by Ohio

... while life under the direction of TC in Cleveland has become all about "The Work." Quite a reversal from the rhetoric of the past.

Ohio, what does this mean?