Where Has All the Orthopraxy Gone?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Freedom, I have a similar memory. I had also seen John Ingalls' name in the old books, and I remember mentioning his name in a home meeting. I also knew nothing of the history, though I had heard of a "rebellion" or "storm" in the 80's, but how would I have known that he was "involved" in that? Anyway, the response I got? People just stared at me. Made me really uncomfortable. You'd think I'd grown alien antennae or something.

That's why it's become called "The Hidden History of the Local Church." They cover their past like a cat covers their ........ well that ... it ... without sh.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's why it's become called "The Hidden History of the Local Church." They cover their past like a cat covers their ........ well that ... it ... without sh.

Consider the LC critic, Jim Moran, where his writings were wiped from the face of the earth after he died suddenly and members of the LC bought the website and copyrighted the material making it impossible for anyone to publish anything of his without their approval. What are they afraid of? I just don’t get it but then again I am sure Jim Moran has been covered on this forum.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Consider the LC critic, Jim Moran, where his writings were wiped from the face of the earth after he died suddenly and members of the LC bought the website and copyrighted the material making it impossible for anyone to publish anything of his without their approval. What are they afraid of? I just don’t get it but then again I am sure Jim Moran has been covered on this forum.

Thanks to bro Ohio I got hard copies of Jim's website, and scanned them into digital ... it's a mess but can be put together. Just to defy LSM I'll send them to anyone that requests them in PM.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks to bro Ohio I got hard copies of Jim's website, and scanned them into digital ... it's a mess but can be put together. Just to defy LSM I'll send them to anyone that requests them in PM.

I have two documents from Jim Moran, "The Exclusivism of the Local Church" (18 pages) by Jim Moran and "A Brief History of the Local Church" (5 pages). Over the last 36 years I have periodically gone online (after about 1985 when the internet started to become available) and looked up material on the LC. These two articles are well footnoted but the last dates listed are 1990. Not sure when I printed them out.

It's interesting that Moran quotes Lee [Witness Lee, Christ versus Religion (LSM:1971)pp 109-110 and Witness Lee, Young People's Training, p. 24], "...Only the golden lampstands, the local churches, are the testimony of Jesus. You may love the Lord, be very spiritual, and know the Bible more than others, but if you are not in the local churches you are not the testimony of Jesus...When we were in the denominations, we were blind. I do not believe that any dear Christians who have really received sight from the Lord could still remain in the denominations....Consider all the denominations. They only have division and confusion." No wonder it has been so difficult to leave the LC...nothing is out there after hearing this stuff despite any level of spiritual life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's why it's become called "The Hidden History of the Local Church." They cover their past like a cat covers their ........ well that ... it ... without sh.

Speaking of "covering", remember how WL was supposedly a "covering" for us? I used to hear that from his cheerleaders. Like somehow he was standing in the breach for us, and connecting us to the Head of the Body who was in heaven. When he died I remember several people saying that "we lost our covering".

But it was also a covering in another dimension, spiritually. It was a veil between us and Christ. We had filters in between us and the words in print before us. The words were "interpreted" by the Exclusive Bretheren, filtered through a 20th century Chinese merchant. It is not coincidental that WL marketed tennis rackets, men's suits, and stackable chairs. It is not coincidental that WL got run out of Taiwan for money issues. It is not coincidental that when someone got an inheritance that WL suddenly got the idea for a motor home business, run by his family members. It is not coincidental that WL used the pulpit to dress down his franchises, the local churches, for investments in his scheme, and when it collapsed he shrugged. He'd underwritten one of his sons for a couple of years - good enough.

Now we all filter the word. We all have bias. But WL told us that WN stood on the shoulders of all, and could see the truth, and he and WL were so transformed that the word that came to us was straight from the top - i.e. God's present burden for planet Earth today. WL told us that he'd searched high and low, and for 40 years he couldn't find anyone who could teach him anything.

And we bought it. We willingly put this veil over us. Instead of seeing the ignorance and arrogance of such "nobody can teach me anything" statements, we all congratulated ourselves on making it to the New Testament equivalent of the Good Land.

And when the problems came, we just "covered" them. We relabeled them as "Storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions", instead of that unrighteousness was among us. So yes, we were covered. Our history was covered. The truth was covered. God's revelation was covered.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And when the problems came, we just "covered" them. We relabeled them as "Storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions", instead of that unrighteousness was among us. So yes, we were covered. Our history was covered. The truth was covered. God's revelation was covered.

If we have learned anything from Richard Nixon, it's that the cover-up is almost always worse than the crime.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If we have learned anything from Richard Nixon, it's that the cover-up is almost always worse than the crime.

When you tell the truth, sometimes it will hurt for a little while, but deception erodes trust.
The leading brothers had opportunity to tell the truth. Sure, there would have been hurt feelings for a little while and the recovery would have recovered from it.
Now the deception has gone on so long for many years, who knows if it's past the point of no return? At any rate, they feel to continue the deception.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

There is nothing wrong with using our own personal homilies to illustrate spiritual principles we see in the Bible. Preachers and pastors do it on Sunday morning from the pulpit: they use their own "parables" to illustrate themes and narratives found within the text.

But Lee's homilies became substitutes for scriptures, and common sense. Our thinking was reduced to WWBLS? What would Brother Lee say? If he talked about gophers, so did we.


... So eating, drinking, breathing Jesus became what Lee told us it was, no more or less. Lee's folk homilies replaced the Bible.

I wanted to move this from the "introductions" thread to here, because this really strikes at the heart of "orthodoxy" versus "orthopraxy".

After writing the above comments, I began singing the chorus of a little melody to myself: "Feed me Lord Jesus/Give me to drink/fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst/Flood me with joy/Be the strength of my heart/Fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst"

It all sounds so orthodox, doesn't it? Pleasnt little song, catchy melody. That is part of the "hook" to get the converts in. Make it seem so good, and proper, and "Biblical". Everything is seemingly by the book. But once you are in, and fully invested in the system, and you begin to see things that are not, in fact, Biblical, what can you do? Because the system's directives also say, "Maximum Brother is always right". They use, for example, the story of Moses and Miriam and Aaron, and the story of the drunken Noah, and they say this shows us God's plan of a normal church life.

So when Lee said to pan the Psalms, we all did. Even if Paul had written in his epistles to sing them, Lee said not to sing them. So in practice, we went with Lee, over the Bible. This is not heretical, per se, but rather deviant behavior. We paid lip service to the Bible, then went and did what the "God's oracle" told us to do. To me this looks unbalanced, and dangerous. Heteropraxy, if you will.

One day about 2 years ago I was getting interested in the Psalms and I went to LSM's website, on the "Music" section. At the top of one page they had the quote from Paul in his epistle, urging the saints to sing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs". And they had many, many music CDs for sale. But no Psalms! You could sing verses from Thessalonians, or Timothy, or even the outline of Lee's trainings ("Incarnation, inclusion, intensification!"). But no Psalms. Why? Because Lee had told us that they were "fallen concepts" and should be avoided. So Big Brother had spoken, and even if it made no sense we had to follow. Because, remember, Big Brother is always right. Even when he's wrong, he's right.

So they take great pains to appear orthodox, but when you start to hang around with them, you begin to realize that at best they are unbalanced and strange.

[aron]

Orthodoxy: "As also affirmed by Fuller Theological Seminary the teachings of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the local churches affirm the essential doctrinal positions of the historic Christian church regarding the nature of God, the doctrine of the Trinity, the nature, person, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of the atonement, the nature of humans before and after the fall, the plan of salvation (redemption), the nature of the church, the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, and Christ's bodily, visible Second Coming for final judgment and the reconciliation of all things. Not only are these teachings fully within orthodoxy, they are more carefully explained and contrasted to heretical beliefs that they are in most American Christian churches. Most local church believers in America understand and can explain essential biblical doctrine better than most traditional American Christians."

(Gretchen Passantino, Answers in Action)

Heteropraxy: "all local churches must be exactly identical, without any differences" WL, footnote from Revelations RecV.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orthodoxy: "Whenever you come together, each one of you has"... "In the local churches we don't use clergy/laity system. Each believer can minister the riches of Christ..."

Heteropraxy: "Whenever you speak in the meeting, don't use your own thoughts, reactions, concepts, or opinions. Just try to speak exactly what God's oracle has spoken to us... try to be a Witness Lee tape recorder"

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I wanted to move this from the "introductions" thread to here, because this really strikes at the heart of "orthodoxy" versus "orthopraxy".

After writing the above comments, I began singing the chorus of a little melody to myself: "Feed me Lord Jesus/Give me to drink/fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst/Flood me with joy/Be the strength of my heart/Fill all my hunger/Quench all my thirst"

It all sounds so orthodox, doesn't it? Pleasnt little song, catchy melody. That is part of the "hook" to get the converts in. Make it seem so good, and proper, and "Biblical". Everything is seemingly by the book. But once you are in, and fully invested in the system, and you begin to see things that are not, in fact, Biblical, what can you do? Because the system's directives also say, "Maximum Brother is always right". They use, for example, the story of Moses and Miriam and Aaron, and the story of the drunken Noah, and they say this shows us God's plan of a normal church life.

So when Lee said to pan the Psalms, we all did. Even if Paul had written in his epistles to sing them, Lee said not to sing them. So in practice, we went with Lee, over the Bible. This is not heretical, per se, but rather deviant behavior. We paid lip service to the Bible, then went and did what the "God's oracle" told us to do. To me this looks unbalanced, and dangerous. Heteropraxy, if you will.

One day about 2 years ago I was getting interested in the Psalms and I went to LSM's website, on the "Music" section. At the top of one page they had the quote from Paul in his epistle, urging the saints to sing "Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs". And they had many, many music CDs for sale. But no Psalms! You could sing verses from Thessalonians, or Timothy, or even the outline of Lee's trainings ("Incarnation, inclusion, intensification!"). But no Psalms. Why? Because Lee had told us that they were "fallen concepts" and should be avoided. So Big Brother had spoken, and even if it made no sense we had to follow. Because, remember, Big Brother is always right. Even when he's wrong, he's right.

So they take great pains to appear orthodox, but when you start to hang around with them, you begin to realize that at best they are unbalanced and strange.

It really seems like for LC leadership, there is a constant struggle to balance teaching and practice. For the Christian public they want to appear orthodox. I suppose that they have had some success at that in recent years, but I don't think just because Christian scholars state that the LC is orthodox is going to generate interest in the LC for outsiders.

In regards to doctrine, the LC has to maintain unique the unique teachings of WL. That is what makes it the LC. In regards to practice, they have to maintain their unique practices in order really unique in comparison with other "Christians".

To they outsider, they can create an image of having orthodox doctrines. That is relatively easy. I don't know how they can really do the same in regards to practice. About the best they can do is be very esoteric regarding what practices are revealed to whom.

It doesn't seem possible in the LC to gravitate towards normal Christian orthopraxy. Those who come in and do so don't seem to last very long. Those who stay quickly are drawn into the heteropraxy, and once that happens it is not easy to find a way out. I say that because I am still in the LC.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It really seems like for LC leadership, there is a constant struggle to balance teaching and practice. For the Christian public they want to appear orthodox. I suppose that they have had some success at that in recent years, but I don't think just because Christian scholars state that the LC is orthodox is going to generate interest in the LC for outsiders.

In regards to doctrine, the LC has to maintain unique the unique teachings of WL. That is what makes it the LC. In regards to practice, they have to maintain their unique practices in order really unique in comparison with other "Christians".

To they outsider, they can create an image of having orthodox doctrines. That is relatively easy. I don't know how they can really do the same in regards to practice. About the best they can do is be very esoteric regarding what practices are revealed to whom.

It doesn't seem possible in the LC to gravitate towards normal Christian orthopraxy. Those who come in and do so don't seem to last very long. Those who stay quickly are drawn into the heteropraxy, and once that happens it is not easy to find a way out. I say that because I am still in the LC.

As I sum up your post Freedom, appears you're saying:
1. LSM/LC leadership want to appear/maintain image of orthodox to Christian scholars and public (see CRI).
2. In practice maintain/promote the Lee's ministry as "unique".
3. Of new contacts visiting LC meetings will either be turned away by promotion of a ministry and few will be drawn into the vision.

As a current LC elder once said..."the recovery is not for everybody".