LiveStrong and A-Rod

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

To me the issue you raise is not about Lee's character flaws. Of course, Lee may have scored somewhere in the sociopathic spectrum. But the issue is why we, the so-called saints, gave him so much power. There would certainly be something of value to be learned by elucidating that process in print, so that they who read it don't repeat it.

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Ohio,

We are accountable for ALL Scripture. Not just the verse that tells us to submit to the authorities over us. Acts 17:11 is in the Bible too. This is the first lesson in accountability.

We were young. We were impressionable. We cannot go back and undo the past, but we can own it now. We now know we were wrong to submit to men rather than God. We now know we were wrong not to search the scriptures to verify what we were being told. We were wrong to keep quiet rather than speak to truth and hold these men accountable.

If indeed "There would certainly be something of value to be learned by elucidating that process in print, so that they who read it don't repeat it... this would be it. Specifically: "Don't do what I did." and call it what it is: sin.

Nell

[Cal]

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Try to fool people I love, better watch your head.

[Cal]

The analogy is not lost on me, Ohio. Armstrong was a icon here in Austin. Even our pastor voiced his admiration for him.

George F. Will once wrote, "Heroes make vivid the values by which we try to live." Lee and Armstrong were heroes because they (seemed to) personify values we held dear and aspired to.

God once showed me that celebrity is not wrong; it has a purpose. Famous people exist to embody values and inspire imitation. Lee and Armstrong were supposed to be this kind of person, but they let people down. They abused their celebrity.

Their motivations were different, but they made the same basic mistake. They cut moral corners to achieve their goals. Armstrong thought he could cheat his way to fame, fortune and even impactful good works. Lee thought he could bully a following into fulfilling "God's purpose." When questioned they went into denial and blame-shifting, not simply because they were self-centered, but because they believed their intentions justified their means. The ultimate results were disillusionment and scattered sheep.

Some admirers retreated into denial about their hero's failure. Others succumbed to cynicism and iconoclasm. But the best lesson is to learn to differentiate the values from the hero, and never take celebrity too far.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

...But the best lesson is to learn to differentiate the values from the hero, and never take celebrity too far.

I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I just don't think it's the best. I think the best lesson is to learn the scriptures. Learn obedience. Learn that God is clean, righteous and holy. To look at others for a standard for living, we will always fall short...because THEY will always fall short.

We should be looking away to Jesus. Of course, this is a pretty lofty standard, but it's HUGE! We get to know Him in the areas of our lives where obedience is doable. If the Lord tells you to do something...do it! If He tells you not to do something...don't do it!

If He tells you to SLOW DOWN, take your foot off the gas. If He tells you to STOP TALKING, stop talking. Maybe you all do this anyway. I just think we miss the point sometimes.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I just don't think it's the best. I think the best lesson is to learn the scriptures. Learn obedience. Learn that God is clean, righteous and holy. To look at others for a standard for living, we will always fall short...because THEY will always fall short.

We should be looking away to Jesus. Of course, this is a pretty lofty standard, but it's HUGE! We get to know Him in the areas of our lives where obedience is doable. If the Lord tells you to do something...do it! If He tells you not to do something...don't do it!

I'm not saying that your statement is wrong, but where did I or those around me NOT learn obedience? It was the Lord who led me to the church in Cleveland as an answer to prayer. I never idolized anyone, but did look to others, older brothers especially, as examples of the faith, as patterns to learn from. Was this not scriptural?

Sorry Nell, but you like to provide a corrective tone, which is not always applicable to others. We should never forget that real failures are part of our walk by faith, as is readily observed in the scriptures. One type of failure is allowing yourself to be deceived for a time by others. I seem to remember that even our Lord Jesus was deceived by Judas. Perhaps our Heavenly Father has provided a special grace to those who taste the same betrayal on earth as His Son did, which otherwise we would have never known.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'm not saying that your statement is wrong, but where did I or those around me NOT learn obedience? It was the Lord who led me to the church in Cleveland as an answer to prayer. I never idolized anyone, but did look to others, older brothers especially, as examples of the faith, as patterns to learn from. Was this not scriptural?

Sorry Nell, but you like to provide a corrective tone, which is not always applicable to others. We should never forget that real failures are part of our walk by faith, as is readily observed in the scriptures. One type of failure is allowing yourself to be deceived for a time by others. I seem to remember that even our Lord Jesus was deceived by Judas. Perhaps our Heavenly Father has provided a special grace to those who taste the same betrayal on earth as His Son did, which otherwise we would have never known.

OK. Point taken.

How can you allow yourself to be deceived? If you "allow" it, you're not deceived.

Jesus is God. He was not deceived by Judas. He was betrayed. I'm not sure what you're saying.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I just don't think it's the best. I think the best lesson is to learn the scriptures. Learn obedience. Learn that God is clean, righteous and holy. To look at others for a standard for living, we will always fall short...because THEY will always fall short.

We should be looking away to Jesus. Of course, this is a pretty lofty standard, but it's HUGE! We get to know Him in the areas of our lives where obedience is doable. If the Lord tells you to do something...do it! If He tells you not to do something...don't do it!

If He tells you to SLOW DOWN, take your foot off the gas. If He tells you to STOP TALKING, stop talking. Maybe you all do this anyway. I just think we miss the point sometimes.

Nell

Thanks for the reminder, Nell. I think everyone understands this. The discussion was of a more specific nature regarding role models and heroes. My usage of "best" was in relation to either being in denial about the failure of your hero, or being cynical. It wasn't meant in an absolute sense.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Didn't a lot of people leave the Lord's Recovery in the 1980's? (I'm talking about a loss in membership, not the few famous leaders we're all familiar with.) Why did so many leave, if no one knew anything?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The answer is that we trusted our leaders, we submitted to them as the scripture has instructed us. It was they who betrayed our trust. It was often self-serving motives in local leaders which caused them not to stand up for righteousness, and instead bow down and stick their head in the sand.

How can we be accountable for what we did not know? We as young believers are not responsible for being deceived by Christian ministers any more than a child is responsible for being abused. As long as LSM was in complete control of all information, they had a semblance of prosperity. Today, with information so readily available, LSM has had to court folks like Hank HandyGraft of CRI to maintain their credibility as Christians.

Oddly, that is what the whole wood, hay, and stubble passage is talking about. But Lee turned it away from speaking about the leadership and made it about us. That way we would think everything that went wrong was our fault.