Nothing New under the Sun

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And this was conditioned in the Local Churches by the focus on "good building material", versus sinners who need transformation. And the idea of "making it", as if the system is perfect and given by God Himself, but our inability to make sufficient progress is due to our inherent failures, which apparently cannot be corrected.

How can any system change, if it blames the people within it for its own shorcomings? And how can any system thus constructed do anything but continually spit out traumatized souls who tried and failed to please the system's unreachable dictates?

Blaming the rank and file members for the shortcomings of the LC is a problem I seen again and again. Maybe it's the easiest way in which to place the blame. One area in particular that I have seen this happen frequently is with trying to get an increase. When I read LC history, it clear that history that this has been a continual problem. I was in a meeting once where a brother judged a number of us for not having any "new ones". I don't think it's wrong to eagerly encourage everyone to invite friends to meetings, but passing judgement on people for not doing that is going much too far. Anyways, when I was at that meeting, I wanted to tell that brother that there is a reason I am not bringing friends to LC meetings. The reason being is that I didn't feel it's the right place for them, especially when there is such an attitude of judging others (which I have seen in many other situations as well). That is setting aside the numerous other issue I can think for not bringing someone to a LC meeting.

It occurred to me that there are probably many who are also in my shoes. All us "small potatoes" have our reasons for not inviting people to LC meetings, however, no one is going to vocally say why. So the LC has put itself in a position that instead of trying to determine why there is a lack of a normal increase, they instead blame members for the failings of the system that they created. It's easier to call saints "lukewarm" or "passive" rather than to address question of why that is the case.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

... the LC has put itself in a position that instead of trying to determine why there is a lack of a normal increase, they instead blame members for the failings of the system that they created. It's easier to call saints "lukewarm" or "passive" rather than to address question of why that is the case.

I think this is an accurate assessment. And to reinforce the point, it's an assessment that could have been made 30 years ago.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I think this is an accurate assessment. And to reinforce the point, it's an assessment that could have been made 30 years ago.

Yes. Back in 1980 I felt sorry for those I brought into the LC. I shouldn't have done that.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Back in 1980 I felt sorry for those I brought into the LC. I shouldn't have done that.

I had a different take on this. When I left in 1978 I did so quietly but those who I had brought in were aware that I had left. If they wished to discuss it with me I would have been open but my concern at that time was this: Okay, I have already made a mistake bringing them in and I am not going to try and bring anyone out---maybe double my mistake since then they would want to know where do we go. Didn't want to go there. Let them decide on their own but if they are interested I would be more than happy to provide my perspective. Of course, none of them every came to me --- maybe the elders labeled me "negative" etc. who knows. Anyway, I was happy not being approached about it. Okay zeek, sometimes you remember things differently and if so you can provide your perspective.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I was in a meeting once where a brother judged a number of us for not having any "new ones". I don't think it's wrong to eagerly encourage everyone to invite friends to meetings, but passing judgement on people for not doing that is going much too far. Anyways, when I was at that meeting, I wanted to tell that brother that there is a reason I am not bringing friends to LC meetings. The reason being is that I didn't feel it's the right place for them, especially when there is such an attitude of judging others (which I have seen in many other situations as well). That is setting aside the numerous other issue I can think for not bringing someone to a LC meeting.

It occurred to me that there are probably many who are also in my shoes. All us "small potatoes" have our reasons for not inviting people to LC meetings, however, no one is going to vocally say why. So the LC has put itself in a position that instead of trying to determine why there is a lack of a normal increase, they instead blame members for the failings of the system that they created. It's easier to call saints "lukewarm" or "passive" rather than to address question of why that is the case.

There's an adage from a former coworker at a prior employer, "it's better to blame than to be blamed".
In context of Freedom's post, the LC/LSM dont' want to take responsibility why there is lack of an increase. Today's LC is a far cry from the mid's 80's when it was easy to invite friends and classmates. Now, there's an unspoken understanding the LC meetings is not for everyone. It's no longer for general believers, but for ones who have a specific appreciation of the ministry. The scope of receiving is so much narrower than it used to be in prior decades.

Do elders and coworkers want to be addressed with real explanations why there isn't an increase? Lack of love and a lack of grace. They may ask, what are you talking about? Just allude to former elders and coworkers no longer welcome. Of course of you do, be prepared with the "negative" label.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

There's an adage from a former coworker at a prior employer, "it's better to blame than to be blamed".
In context of Freedom's post, the LC/LSM dont' want to take responsibility why there is lack of an increase. Today's LC is a far cry from the mid's 80's when it was easy to invite friends and classmates. Now, there's an unspoken understanding the LC meetings is not for everyone. It's no longer for general believers, but for ones who have a specific appreciation of the ministry. The scope of receiving is so much narrower than it used to be in prior decades.

Do elders and coworkers want to be addressed with real explanations why there isn't an increase? Lack of love and a lack of grace. They may ask, what are you talking about? Just allude to former elders and coworkers no longer welcome. Of course of you do, be prepared with the "negative" label.

Lack of an increase is nothing new today among Christians. Just go to http://faithcommunitiestoday.org/ and you will discover that this is not unique. Let's face it, groups like "Youth with a Mission" or "Acts 29" are trying to push the mantle but today it is more difficult. Back in the day when I was involved in "Teen Challenge" and "Campus Crusade" it was different. Admittedly the LC has done nothing to help themselves and they are pretty much closed. However, the problem is more widespread in the US then just the LC's lack of growth. Everything needs to be seen in its own perspective.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Today's LC is a far cry from the mid's 80's when it was easy to invite friends and classmates. Now, there's an unspoken understanding the LC meetings is not for everyone. It's no longer for general believers, but for ones who have a specific appreciation of the ministry.

This is exactly right.

When the LC's were indeed "local" churches, it was easy to invite others. The more Lee brought all the LC's under his dominion, the harder it was to invite.

The answer was simple. Lee became our center, but Lee never died for me, and neither was I ever baptized into Lee's name. (cf I Cor 1.13)

I personally was being trained to "sell" the ministry of Witness Lee rather than the precious gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I can still distinctly remember sitting in an Anaheim Corinthians training and bearing the guilty burden that serious problems existed because I had not adequately presented and sold the ministry of Witness Lee to others, including my own friends and family. What a twisted delusion i was living in at that time.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is exactly right.

When the LC's were indeed "local" churches, it was easy to invite others. The more Lee brought all the LC's under his dominion, the harder it was to invite.

The answer was simple. Lee became our center, but Lee never died for me, and neither was I ever baptized into Lee's name. (cf I Cor 1.13)

I personally was being trained to "sell" the ministry of Witness Lee rather than the precious gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, I can still distinctly remember sitting in an Anaheim Corinthians training and bearing the guilty burden that serious problems existed because I had not adequately presented and sold the ministry of Witness Lee to others, including my own friends and family. What a twisted delusion i was living in at that time.

As I indicated in post #24 things have changed. We are not living in the 1980s whether we are in the LC or other groups or denominations. We need to keep things in perspective.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

As I indicated in post #24 things have changed. We are not living in the 1980s whether we are in the LC or other groups or denominations. We need to keep things in perspective.

I think this is certainly one side to the issue, and I think Christians as a whole are becoming more aware of the lack of increase and the opposition to Christians. I don't think that the LC is very aware of what is going on in modern society. As a result, they are willing to put members in the position of trying to gain an increase without making them aware of the challeges that will be facing them.

[Freedom]

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.


Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

That is unfortunate. Back in the day on campuses I would just use the 3 circles, spirit, soul, body and explain that you can't know God without experience in the deepest part of your being. This is not rocket science. You can't defend the Christian faith because you move people into their mind....ask them to just simply open their heart...if they truly want to experience God....if not, no problem, and move on... talk to as many people as possible. It's like pyramid schemes, in a sense, which we have all been approached about...you talk to enough people and you will find some who will listen...for a variety of reasons...they are searching...they are open etc... Of course, if you can respond to their concerns that is helpful but for the most part it's sales like quite honestly. Take your time and consider your own disposition...there is no quota. Persistence and everyday efforts are essential.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved.

That's been my observation also. Whether you go to preach the gospel or to invite ones to receive the gospel, if 10 out of 10 receive salvation it's considered a lost cause if none of them are brought into the local church.

The focus is all wrong. Salvation should be first and foremost. Whether they come into the local church should not be a ulterior motive.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To add to my previous post, it has been my experience that when we go out and preach the gospel, it has never been simply preaching the gospel. The goal is always firstly to recruit people to the LC and secondly to get them saved. Case and point: when I've done BFA in the past, the main goal was to get people to accept a free RcV NT. It was never to tell people about God or the Bible. It was to tell them about how their Bible at home (if they even had one) was insufficient and then needed RcV instead. Also things like inviting people to come to a campus Christian club meeting were more of a recruiting effort than a concern over whether people were saved or not.

Anyways my point in saying all this is that in the LC I was never equipped to tell people about the Lord or much less to lead them to the Lord. Maybe things were different in the past. If someone were to ask me a question "How do we know that God exists?", I wouldn't be able to tell them. If I had to defend the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith, I couldn't do that. About the only thing that I could do would be to defend LC teachings. About the only thing that I know how to do in regards to gaining an increase is try to recruit people to develop an interest in the ministry. That's why LSM/BB's/local elders shouldn't be surprised when there is so little increase. Even if there is little increase outside the LC as well. So the LC is dealing with the same issues affecting Christians as a whole, in addition to their self-inflicted issues.

Along these lines, I would add that when there is "increase," it is often with folks who have developed a personal connection with a few particular people in the church. Sometimes this lasts. Other times, they gradually, eventually, wisen up to the fact that there's a lot more going on under the surface.

In fact, I would say that often the very thing that attracts people is that they feel there are real personal connections, instead of the politics they might have encountered elsewhere. When they ultimately realize that there is actually a whole world of politics and ministry loyalty, the result can be confusion and disappointment.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Blaming the rank and file members for the shortcomings of the LC is a problem I seen again and again. Maybe it's the easiest way in which to place the blame.

WL used to blame all the saints for becoming Laodicea, yet he NEVER once took ownership for the continual decline both in membership and moral over the years. Never did Lee mention that thousands of precious saints had left the Recovery over the financial improprieties of Daystar, the corruption and abuses by his own sons, the massive smear campaign against the men of God who rose up to speak their conscience, and the endless failed programs sold to the saints as "God's move" or the latest "flow of the Spirit," to name just a few reasons.

Lee took zero responsibility for his actions and teachings, yet was always so adept at dumping truckloads of guilt, blame, and manipulation on the children of God. One time Lee threatened to terminate his ministry if the saints did not rise up to live by what he was speaking.

Too bad he never did keep his word.