Teaching on Calling on the Name of the Lord

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Corporate repentance might be good occasionally but I think the time and place for repentance is a personal one and occurs during the "examine yourself" stage before the Lord's Table.

Yes, one could do this. But the whole emphasis on confession is then left to, at most, a brief comment before the Table meeting, if at all. The idea of making confession a more pronounced part of regular worship is quite relevant when you realize that even without a Table meeting, we are supposedly coming to worship God yet seldom see that we are ourselves in the way.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Arminianism and those who believe we can lose salvation typically focus on repentance for blessing. They typically see repentance as a cause of blessing.

I have no idea about that. Oddly, my early years were with an Arminian group yet we never had any kind of corporate repentance.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Generally speaking, Christian groups with Calvinistic tendencies such as the LR often see repentance as an outcome of blessing not as a cause. They are careful to ensure that repentance is a "gift" and does not become a "work" - it is something that God does in us. So I think it is OK if there is no repentance because blessing and acceptance comes before repentance (like the prodigal son).

And it is here that I have found that the scripture is significantly at odds with the LRC theology. The gift of eternal life has been given. After that we do work. Grace remains a component, but it is not simply giving us gifts, but teaching us to obey (see Titus, I believe it is). Lee's "economy" teaching is that everything remains on a grace basis, meaning we do nothing until we have the gift/grace/dispensing to just do it. I find that to be backward when compared to what Christ himself said in the gospels.

For example, we want to abide (understood as wait on something) until we have what it takes to act. But Jesus said that those who obey will get the Father and the Son to abide with them. And the metaphor of vine and branches is never one of waiting on anything. It is one of constant action because there is connection. If you are connected, you act.

I agree that there is a tendency for many Calvinistic groups to turn everything into a "no works zone" and expect that it will fall on them because they cannot do works.

But when does one repent to a spouse for something? Do you expect that you will have some special time together and from that will come a blessing and then you will have what it takes to repent/apologize? If so, then I would expect very few times when there was anything actually special. More like a lot of "leave me alone," "just go away," etc.

And this is why I so often refer back to the experiences I had and observed in the LRC as false. We worked ourselves into faux spiritual highs, but nothing truly spiritual came out of it. No righteousness. No repentance. No corporate confession. That is because if you think that you had a spiritually high time prior to your repentance, you were deluded. That was a lot of bootstrapping and cheerleading to get the emotions raised.

And since I cannot recall any true confession in the LRC, I doubt that the experiences were very real. More likely worked-up.

And we talked about "no works." What a joke.

[Evangelical]

Repentance before blessing/grace is backwards in my view.

Proof: God sent His Son while we were still sinners, without repentance. Also, Romans 2:4 says so. God's kindness comes before repentance.

In relationships, grace often comes before repentance. Suppose a husband and wife argue, they don't talk to each other. They might remember their love for each other and commitment, come together, and then they are in a position to say sorry to each other. Repenting immediately after the sin is often not genuine. It takes time for grace to work to lead a person to repentance.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

I have no idea about that. Oddly, my early years were with an Arminian group yet we never had any kind of corporate repentance.

But when does one repent to a spouse for something? Do you expect that you will have some special time together and from that will come a blessing and then you will have what it takes to repent/apologize?

And this is why I so often refer back to the experiences I had and observed in the LRC as false. We worked ourselves into faux spiritual highs, but nothing truly spiritual came out of it. No righteousness. No repentance. No corporate confession. That is because if you think that you had a spiritually high time prior to your repentance, you were deluded. That was a lot of bootstrapping and cheerleading to get the emotions raised.

In the LSM/LC you won't find any corporate repentance. By nature it would be politically incorrect. As one of the items to corporately repent of would be quarantines, lifting up a man and his ministry, etc.

OBW, there's been many occasions during my 20+ years of marriage that my spouse and I have taken the time to repent and apologize.

I agree with you somewhat regarding LC experiences. Often I've observed following a bi-annual training there's a short-lived spiritual high that last a week or so until it's business as usual the local church.
Just as you said, no righteousness, no repentance within the body and no confession corporately while there likely is repentance and confession individually between a believer and God.
Part of the reason why there is no righteousness is largely in part due to practice of deputy authority. While aspects may be scriptural, if there's no checks and balances to prevent unrighteous spiritual abuse. Just as Ohio has said produces bullies out of good brothers.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Part of the reason why there is no righteousness is largely in part due to practice of deputy authority. While aspects may be scriptural, if there's no checks and balances to prevent unrighteous spiritual abuse. Just as Ohio has said produces bullies out of good brothers.

Part of it is elders, co-workers, etc do not feel they need to be accountable towards any brothers or sisters in which the normal thing to do is repent and apologize.
Remember Mario Sandoval and Samuel Liu in Hear the Cases regarding the Church in Ontario.
Or Steve Isitt and Ron Kangas over what Ron spoke in Ambato, Ecuador in 2007. Steve tried by phone and by mail to fellowship with Ron over what Ron spoke. No response. Right or wrong, it should never take a brother to initiate a lawsuit to get the other party to respond.
This is the attitude some, but not all responsible ones have exhibited. They can do or say something to offend another brother or another sister, but don't have to respond and certain don't have to apologize for anything.