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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Toxic racism. It's a meme you were indoctrinated into that determines your perception of Arabs. You think you know this; but DNA and social science evidence don't support it. You reject evidence that doesn't confirm your belief because of fear. Thus, racism born of ignorance reinforces itself.

We need to abandon the racist Bible interpretations that we were taught. Otherwise, we and those we discriminate against on the basis of these toxic teaching will suffer unnecessarily.

The only one suffering here is me, having to endure your scathing personal attacks -- ad hominems, had we a moderator -- being called regularly an ignorant racist fundamentalist hater, etc.

In any normal forum, you would have been banned long ago for flaming. But since you are friends with the MOTA, you are allowed to stay.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The only one suffering here is me, having to endure your scathing personal attacks -- ad hominems, had we a moderator -- called regularly an ignorant racist fundamentalist hater, etc.

Welcome to Alternative Views. It's a free for all here. I don't know for sure, but I think that's why UntoHim MADE me the moderator of AltVs. He somehow knew I'd be very liberal toward AltVs.

And yes it's getting pretty headed out here. It's a politic thread so what can we expect?

My problem is not that zeek is a friend (going way back to local church days - decades), but that I love both of you. And you know that's true bro Ohio, cuz we're friends too.

But the truth is, zeek's Toxic Racism post was not a ad hominem. It was a debunking, with scientific evidence, that Ishmael doesn't represent all the Arabs. And taking the post personal is not the way to take it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In any normal forum, you would have been banned long ago for flaming.

I remember bro ZNP getting banned from the normal forum LCD. That's not going to happen here on Altvs. I'm against banning.

And for similar reasons I'd like to continue discussing group-hate. It's a very critical and important matter, that I think Jesus and Christianity has great potential and hope to address. Let's talk about "The New Man" and how it can free us from group-hate.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the truth is, zeek's Toxic Racism post was not a ad hominem. It was a debunking, with scientific evidence, that Ishmael doesn't represent all the Arabs. And taking the post personal is not the way to take it.

Perhaps that is the truth. But the truth also is that there are 58 countries that use Sharia law in some form or another. Now that represents far too great a population to claim that Sharia law is not part of the mainstream understanding of the Koran and Muslim religion.

Therefore it is not unreasonable to wonder how this understanding of Islam would work in for people in the US with a constitution that claims separation of church and state.

What I find unreasonable is to assume that asking this question indicates hate or racism, or doctrinal blindness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And for similar reasons I'd like to continue discussing group-hate. It's a very critical and important matter, that I think Jesus and Christianity has great potential and hope to address. Let's talk about "The New Man" and how it can free us from group-hate.

I appreciate your post.

And if we are going to discuss "group-hate," then it goes both ways.

It has become extremely common for today's progressive liberals in the media to sling categorical epithets at those who disagree with their thinking. That by definition is group hate. We used to be innocent until proven guilty, by the liberal press and beltway elites have tried, convicted, and sentenced any and all who supported Trump as misogynists, xenophobes, racists, islamophobes, etc. etc. Their goal (literally, as proven repeatedly) is to shut down free discussion and 1st amendment rights.

How many times have you categorized Christian "fundamentalists" pejoratively, along with all the baggage associated with it?

Like I said, goes both ways. Are we going to discuss ideas or sling mudballs?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How many times have you categorized Christian "fundamentalists" pejoratively, along with all the baggage associated with it?

I have had a lot of fun with fundamentalism. I grew up with it. They shouldn't be allowed to have 'fun' associated with it. But I don't group-hate them. Much of my family here are fundamentalist types. And I truly love them. I've noticed that they aren't all the same. And that their fundamentalism is shaped by prejudices they grew up with. Thus my cousin and the Ham/slavery/God's Laws story. And by the way, I jumped all over him when he said that, right in front of all present. Pretty much the same way I jumped you for the Ishmael claim. I said, "You've got to be kidding." He wasn't. But he knows better than to debate Bible with me.

Just a personal confession, to maybe clear up misperceptions I may have generated out here so far. I grew up with a staunch Southern Baptist mother. She took me to church every time the doors were opened. My father was a rough Kentucky boy, that grew up in these necks of the woods,, in what was known as The Land Betwixt the Rivers (moonshiners) now Land Between the Lakes (LBL). He was rough and tough and mean, and was an outspoken unapologetic racist. He once kicked my sister and I out of his house, cuz we tried to explain that we had to work with, and get along with, blacks. He said, "I never raised you to be nigger lovers. Get out of my house." Yet he's my dad. I have to love him.

Maybe that's why I actually get along with people on both or all extremes of the spectrum. To me no matter how we group people it ends up that there are both good and bad in all groups.

That's why I can't buy into the Ham curse thing, or the Ishmael/Arab thing. To think that something said or written 3000 years ago applies today, is like saying the city of Damascus 11,000 years ago, or more recently 2500 years ago, was the same as it is today. It's unrealistic to absurdity.

But back to the New Man. When we become a New Man, do we look down on or despise those that aren't? Is that how it works? The New Man has a group to hate? Does that match the sermon on the mount? Or was Jesus just speaking platitudes? When did Christianity become about group-hate?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have had a lot of fun with fundamentalism. I grew up with it. They shouldn't be allowed to have 'fun' associated with it. But I don't group-hate them. Much of my family here are fundamentalist types. And I truly love them. I've noticed that they aren't all the same. And that their fundamentalism is shaped by prejudices they grew up with. Thus my cousin and the Ham/slavery/God's Laws story. And by the way, I jumped all over him when he said that, right in front of all present. Pretty much the same way I jumped you for the Ishmael claim. I said, "You've got to be kidding." He wasn't. But he knows better than to debate Bible with me.

Just a personal confession, to maybe clear up misperceptions I may have generated out here so far. I grew up with a staunch Southern Baptist mother. She took me to church every time the doors were opened. My father was a rough Kentucky boy, that grew up in these necks of the woods,, in what was known as The Land Betwixt the Rivers (moonshiners) now Land Between the Lakes (LBL). He was rough and tough and mean, and was an outspoken unapologetic racist. He once kicked my sister and I out of his house, cuz we tried to explain that we had to work with, and get along with, blacks. He said, "I never raised you to be nigger lovers. Get out of my house." Yet he's my dad. I have to love him.

Maybe that's why I actually get along with people on both or all extremes of the spectrum. To me no matter how we group people it ends up that there are both good and bad in all groups.

That's why I can't buy into the Ham curse thing, or the Ishmael/Arab thing. To think that something said or written 3000 years ago applies today, is like saying the city of Damascus 11,000 years ago, or more recently 2500 years ago, was the same as it is today. It's unrealistic to absurdity.

But back to the New Man. When we become a New Man, do we look down on or despise those that aren't? Is that how it works? The New Man has a group to hate? Does that match the sermon on the mount? Or was Jesus just speaking platitudes? When did Christianity become about group-hate?

Sounds like you are projecting your own group-hate on Christians.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like you are projecting your own group-hate on Christians.

Why would you describe his dad as a "Christian". His dad's attitude is a good example of group hate but not of Christians.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would you describe his dad as a "Christian". His dad's attitude is a good example of group hate but not of Christians.

Good point. But my dad considered himself a Southern Baptist Christian. Hating blacks wasn't against Southern Baptist Christianity. The Southern Baptist church was started in support of holding blacks as slaves.

Are Southern Baptists not Christians?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would you describe his dad as a "Christian". His dad's attitude is a good example of group hate but not of Christians.

Did I do that? Never met his dad.

Perhaps the vestiges of group hate came from Mel Porter.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like you are projecting your own group-hate on Christians.

So asking when Christianity became about group-hate is group-hating them? And being against group-hate is group-hate? Sounds like you support group-hate. If so, why?

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So asking when Christianity became about group-hate is group-hating them? And being against group-hate is group-hate? Sounds like you support group-hate. If so, why?

But you don't "ask," rather you make regular application of group hate to all Christians, southern baptist or not, past and present.

This discussion was never about hate or group hate, but about fear. It was not me who made it about hate. This is a common liberal ploy. If I say that I am afraid of people who act suspiciously and cover their faces with hoodies or masks, then it gets interpreted as racist group hate. It's not hate, it's fear.

I remember one so-called public service commercial on TV. It pictured a white man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Then it changed the picture to a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" I stood and protested, "NO! I have no problem with either of them!"

Then I went on to complain about how deceitful the message was. Why don't they show a public service announcement like this: Picture a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Next show a white kid in a hoodie, hanging out at the mall, and ask "do you have a problem with him?"

This highlights the dishonesty of today's racial narrative.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I have had a lot of fun with fundamentalism. I grew up with it. They shouldn't be allowed to have 'fun' associated with it. But I don't group-hate them. Much of my family here are fundamentalist types. And I truly love them. I've noticed that they aren't all the same. And that their fundamentalism is shaped by prejudices they grew up with. Thus my cousin and the Ham/slavery/God's Laws story. And by the way, I jumped all over him when he said that, right in front of all present. Pretty much the same way I jumped you for the Ishmael claim. I said, "You've got to be kidding." He wasn't. But he knows better than to debate Bible with me.

Just a personal confession, to maybe clear up misperceptions I may have generated out here so far. I grew up with a staunch Southern Baptist mother. She took me to church every time the doors were opened. My father was a rough Kentucky boy, that grew up in these necks of the woods,, in what was known as The Land Betwixt the Rivers (moonshiners) now Land Between the Lakes (LBL). He was rough and tough and mean, and was an outspoken unapologetic racist. He once kicked my sister and I out of his house, cuz we tried to explain that we had to work with, and get along with, blacks. He said, "I never raised you to be nigger lovers. Get out of my house." Yet he's my dad. I have to love him.

Maybe that's why I actually get along with people on both or all extremes of the spectrum. To me no matter how we group people it ends up that there are both good and bad in all groups.

That's why I can't buy into the Ham curse thing, or the Ishmael/Arab thing. To think that something said or written 3000 years ago applies today, is like saying the city of Damascus 11,000 years ago, or more recently 2500 years ago, was the same as it is today. It's unrealistic to absurdity.

But back to the New Man. When we become a New Man, do we look down on or despise those that aren't? Is that how it works? The New Man has a group to hate? Does that match the sermon on the mount? Or was Jesus just speaking platitudes? When did Christianity become about group-hate?

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

Oh but it does. Here's just a little sample :

Slaveholders justified the practice by citing the Bible ...

They asked who could question the Word of God when it said, "slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5), or "tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

If you want more check out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have grown up around people who are unrealistic and absurd and use the Bible to justify their prejudices. As a result you have equated their prejudices with the Bible. That is truly absurd and unrealistic. Just because some Kentucky moonshiner bigot uses the Bible to justify his beliefs doesn't mean it does.

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Why wouldn't you have? But then Catholics have never seemed as serious about their religion as Southern Baptists, so I wouldn't know. My dad, and my mom, made it plain and out front. I couldn't miss it.

But it was because I saw the failures in the SBC that I was attracted to the local church all-in characteristics. They seemed to be more true. It took me time to discover the hypocrisy in the local church.

In the end they both failed me. And I guess I'm a little pissed off about it. Sorry if I'm taking it out on you guys. Y'all never done anything to me. Mea culpa.