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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

He didn't just bring back Christmas he also brought back the use of coal! Let's give him credit where credit is due.

Very important for the forgotten miners in PA, WV, and KY.

But for the wealthy coastline liberals, they could care less and long as their new I-Phone works.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Very important for the forgotten miners in PA, WV, and KY.

My point was that he did bring back Christmas for all the good little corporations, filling their stockings with very fat permanent tax breaks, and he balanced this by giving coal to all the bad little poor people who live next to the coal plants and breathe in the fumes.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But for the wealthy coastline liberals, they could care less and long as their new I-Phone works.

Not true, the wealthy coastline liberals like myself do care. We care about the carcinogens and asthma that comes from burning coal. We care about the intentional disinformation of labeling it "clean coal". We care that the big power companies are doing everything in their ability to prevent people from buying solar. In Florida it is illegal to buy solar except through the local power company. In NY the power companies are putting together a class action suit against the solar companies on bogus charges (we were invited to join the class action suit but declined). Now even though the US has cleaned up its act significantly, it is still a cumulative sum game. When you look at cities in China and India and the smog from their coal you can see just how polluting and deadly it is.

Here is another thing we care about. The price of solar is directly related to the volume of sales. As more solar is sold the price comes down. As of this year solar is now cheaper than coal. If the US, China and India combined forces we could drive the price down incredibly, so much so that you would see it adopted worldwide, just like smart phones. China and India are doing this, but where or where is the US? Are we really going to let this technology go to the Asians like we did with transistors?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

My point was that he did bring back Christmas for all the good little corporations, filling their stockings with very fat permanent tax breaks, and he balanced this by giving coal to all the bad little poor people who live next to the coal plants and breathe in the fumes.

Not true, the wealthy coastline liberals like myself do care. We care about the carcinogens and asthma that comes from burning coal. We care about the intentional disinformation of labeling it "clean coal". We care that the big power companies are doing everything in their ability to prevent people from buying solar. In Florida it is illegal to buy solar except through the local power company. In NY the power companies are putting together a class action suit against the solar companies on bogus charges (we were invited to join the class action suit but declined). Now even though the US has cleaned up its act significantly, it is still a cumulative sum game. When you look at cities in China and India and the smog from their coal you can see just how polluting and deadly it is.

Here is another thing we care about. The price of solar is directly related to the volume of sales. As more solar is sold the price comes down. As of this year solar is now cheaper than coal. If the US, China and India combined forces we could drive the price down incredibly, so much so that you would see it adopted worldwide, just like smart phones. China and India are doing this, but where or where is the US? Are we really going to let this technology go to the Asians like we did with transistors?

Your wind and solar dreams are only real with their infinite assumptions like snow-free and cloud-free skies with 24 hours of daylight. Your liberal idealistic bias was on full display here, but I do like solar. Where I am, unless there are heavy tax credits, which I could use, there is no way it is economically feasible.

If China and India used the coal scrubber technology we have, the world would be a much cleaner place. That's one reason why the Paris accord was scrapped. It penalized America The Clean for the sins of the world.

I like ground source hump pump technology instead of home coal. I am surrounded by clean-coal-burning power plants. Excellent use of our resources. What really pollutes the air is home-coal, because it is so dirty.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your wind and solar dreams are only real with their infinite assumptions like snow-free and cloud-free skies with 24 hours of daylight. Your liberal idealistic bias was on full display here, but I do like solar. Where I am, unless there are heavy tax credits, which I could use, there is no way it is economically feasible.

If China and India used the coal scrubber technology we have, the world would be a much cleaner place. That's one reason why the Paris accord was scrapped. It penalized America The Clean for the sins of the world.

I like ground source hump pump technology instead of home coal. I am surrounded by clean-coal-burning power plants. Excellent use of our resources. What really pollutes the air is home-coal, because it is so dirty.

We have already drastically changed the chemistry of the atmosphere from just 170 years ago at the beginning of the Industrial age. Today the population is 14x's what it was then and growing. Therefore even if we use much cleaner technology, 50% cleaner, even 80% cleaner we will still be increasing the CO2 levels by more than we were back then. There is no way for the Earth to return to homeostasis without a 0 emissions. We have the technology to do that, it should be a priority for us, it is a priority for many other countries who see that they cannot possibly use coal without making their cities uninhabitable.

12 months ago I checked solar and it was not economic for me as well. However, the price has fallen dramatically since then and the same company that told me we weren't economic then says we are now. Now that is looking simply at the cost of the electricity and ignoring the health benefits and environmental benefits. Likewise it is looking at the cost today, ignoring the fact that fossil fuel energy will likely rise in cost over the next 25 years.

Also this is taking into account cloudy days, snowy days, etc. They estimate the total power produced over the lifetime of the solar panels. Yes it is true that these things don't produce power at night, on cloudy, snowy days, and they produce less power in the winter than summer. This is why you need batteries, a way to store the power, and this is why you need to combine this with wind (you do get wind at night and on snowy days) and nuclear.

Currently the US is less than 2% of our electricity from solar. Since energy consumption drops by much more than that in the winter the "snowy days" argument is a straw man that is irrelevant. There are several countries whose use of wind and solar exceeds 20%. In my opinion that should be a US goal every bit as significant as trying to land a man on the moon or building highways across the country.

Germany and China both are doing a better job than we are. Both of these countries are very focused on a successful economy and they both have coal. People need to wake up, in the 1970s you could argue that this was a trivial technology, not anymore. It is growing exponentially, doubling each year, and either we embrace it as much as our space program or else we'll be importing energy from China instead of OPEC.

All we need is to eliminate the legal barriers and hurdles involved in letting people put solar on their house.

Please note, even the Pentagon realized that solar provided better national security and has a large contract for solar. In the event of a war or terrorist attack the Pentagon does not want to be crippled by a power plant being attacked. It is called "distributed energy". It would enable our telecommunications to continue to be up and running in the event of an attack. We are in an age of terrorism, just another reason why we should embrace solar.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Germany and China both are doing a better job than we are. Both of these countries are very focused on a successful economy and they both have coal. People need to wake up, in the 1970s you could argue that this was a trivial technology, not anymore. It is growing exponentially, doubling each year, and either we embrace it as much as our space program or else we'll be importing energy from China instead of OPEC.

All we need is to eliminate the legal barriers and hurdles involved in letting people put solar on their house.

We have strikingly different world views which is evidenced here.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have strikingly different world views which is evidenced here.

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

So I burn wood for heat. That's not environmentally friendly either, but it's the best I can do right now. It's colder, as they say, than a witches tit here. No snow, like prolly bro Ohio has, but dipping to 11 at night, and hanging below freezing, so I'm burning thru a lot of wood.

I've become a fire worshiper. I love my stove. Prometheus sure did us a big favor, even if he defied Zeus by stealing fire and introducing it to us mortals. He made a great self sacrifice for us, and got punished for it. Thanks Prometheus.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

So I burn wood for heat. That's not environmentally friendly either, but it's the best I can do right now. It's colder, as they say, than a witches tit here. No snow, like prolly bro Ohio has, but dipping to 11 at night, and hanging below freezing, so I'm burning thru a lot of wood.

I've become a fire worshiper. I love my stove. Prometheus sure did us a big favor, even if he defied Zeus by stealing fire and introducing it to us mortals. He made a great self sacrifice for us, and got punished for it. Thanks Prometheus.

Do you have a Franklin stove? My dad had one, very efficient. 0 emissions does not mean we can't burn wood. Simply that we can't burn fossil fuel. Of course we generally think of biofuel, but wood is also a "biofuel" that is renewable.

In 2014 the cost per watt for Solar panels averages $3.86, in 2017 it was $3.17. That is a substantial drop in price and the drop in price has been accelerating in the last 12 months.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Does it depend on world views? If solar wasn't so expensive I'd of adopted it long ago. I dislike the electric companies. I noticed farmers around here with large solar panels. They're prolly selling it back to the electric company.

The brother I've spoken about before, the one that went from local church elder to Native American shaman, lives off the grid, powered by wind.

He told me he'd help me build a wind generator. But upon looking at the map of wind friendly locations, I found it wouldn't work here.

My brother tried to put up a windmill. He is in a fairly high wind area. We were looking at the wind charts. He wanted to get off the grid too.

He ran into endless regulations. He needed a larger yard than two acres, because he had to have a fall zone which matched the height of the windmill and vanes -- very prohibitive.

Why don't the same fall zones exist for cell towers and high tension lines?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We have strikingly different world views which is evidenced here.

The wealthy coastline liberals are located where there is excellent resource for wind. Why shouldn't we develop this resource so that we have a domestic supply of energy rather than import it? How can you claim that we have "forgotten the coal miners of WV and PA"? We have to support their development of a dirty resource that is damaging to our health but cannot develop our own resource which does not damage the environmental health of anyone on the coast or in those states as well?! If we have to support WV's right to mine coal, why shouldn't they support the right of coastline states to develop their offshore wind resource?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The wealthy coastline liberals are located where there is excellent resource for wind. Why shouldn't we develop this resource so that we have a domestic supply of energy rather than import it? How can you claim that we have "forgotten the coal miners of WV and PA"? We have to support their development of a dirty resource that is damaging to our health but cannot develop our own resource which does not damage the environmental health of anyone on the coast or in those states as well?! If we have to support WV's right to mine coal, why shouldn't they support the right of coastline states to develop their offshore wind resource?

It's your liberal bias that has you convinced that coal is such a dirty resource. There are coal powered generating plants all over, and the air is clean, there is no soot. I'd prefer to live by a coal plant than LA smog or NYC filth.

Both Obama and Clinton had the goal to shut down all coal. I never was a fan of eastern coal because I know that western coal is more economical and burns cleaner, but I strongly protest Obama's endless regulations which sacrifice American industry, resources, and jobs. Obama saw nothing wrong with the whole state of WV on welfare, food stamps, and opioid addicts. Trump does, and for that I really appreciate his leadership.

And I like the way his new tax plan penalizes high priced blue states! Praise God!