Art Katz on True Fellowship

[TLFisher]

This next message by Art Katz is based on John 5:41 and Luke 6:22. God wants us to seek His honor alone. If we are those who give honor only to God, expect dishonor in this life. To receive honor from men is as Art spoke to "negate apostolic integrity". To speak truth and absoluteness is to offend our want for honor, esteem, and recognition.

Consider the prophets. They were hated because honor was not sought. Prophets not seeking honor caused resentment and opposition to be raised up.

Terry

[OBW]

I have not listened to the messages, but only observed your comments. It would seem that these messages are extending the state of the prophet beyond those who were, or sought to be, prophets.

Now your comments did suggest at one point that he said this was specifically for prophets, but the way you immediately mentioned ministers was not clear that he was excluding them or including them. Or whether he was initially excluding them but essentially including them anyway.

The task of an OT prophet was primarily to speak against ongoing error in Israel and/or Judea. They were not the equivalent of ministers who speak all of the word of God, but those who speak what we might call correcting words, warnings and exhortations. Surely no one is going to like being told they are in error. So if a prophet is getting too many kudos, then it might be a sign that his message is not right.

But a minister, teacher, shepherd, etc., is constantly spurring us on to greater heights. As we realize the benefits that we receive from God, we may acknowledge the human vessel(s) that are used to bring those benefits. While the minister should never consider that he, himself provided the benefit, he is worthy of his "wages," in whatever form they are. In this last message it would seem that AK is so concerned about anyone being spoken well of that he is extending the "no honor" thought from the prophets to all ministers of every kind.

So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

Surely all of the servants of God who minister to us should not be doing it for personal gain or the approval of man. But if they do their "job" well, these may come. Righteous people will acknowledge others who serve them well. The key is not in rejecting any honor that comes their way, but in 1) not seeking the honor of man and 2) accepting it humbly as you simultaneously acknowledge that the truly faithful one is God.

You may have only mentioned certain portions that stood out to you, but it seems that AK is almost sterilizing "true fellowship" to the point that we are merely disinterested tools being used by God to have emotionless discourse with one another.

I would surely expect that AK should not expect much of a following since he seems to think that his message should be a thorn in the sides of everyone. Or is it merely a thorn in the sides of those outside of his fellowship to whom he speaks as a prophet? There is something almost Lee-like in this position.

I may be too harsh since I do not have the luxury of time to actually listen to the messages but must rely on your brief comments. But even if I am off base, it seems that is what stuck out to you to write about.

Looking at this view in terms of the LC, it would seem that Lee would like this notion. All of the followers would be very careful to avoid seeking the approval of man, so no one would try to step out of line. But despite the apparent disconnect, everyone is following and praising the one leader for bringing this "rich ministry." Sort of tells why Lee didn't consider any as being peers. They were too busy staying "unworthy".

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by OBW

I have not listened to the messages, but only observed your comments.

OBW, if you don't have time to listen but prefer to read - check out Art's many documents, free for download at ArtKatzMinistries.org

Below is another quicker way to access the print version of "True Fellowship":
''True Fellowship'' (Is Our Practice of Fellowship Genuine?) Part A Part B Print Version Larger Font

Originally Posted by OBW

So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

I think Art took it that far based upon the fact that the faithful slaves of Christ are told to expect the same amount, if not more so, the rejection and lack of honor from men...

Mat 10:25 It is sufficient for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the Master of the house 1aBeelzebul, how much more those of His household!

P.S.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

I think Art took it that far based upon the fact that the faithful slaves of Christ are told to expect the same amount, if not more so, the rejection and lack of honor from men...

With respect to rejection from the outside, I would agree. But such rejection is not presumed from the inside.

But there is no reason to expect that God-fearing people who are getting excellent ministry should not let those ministers hear about it. Surely the ministers should not do it for the purpose of accolades, but there is nothing that suggests they should go out of their way to avoid any.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

But a minister, teacher, shepherd, etc., is constantly spurring us on to greater heights.
So if the idea with the prophets is that they should not only seek no honor, but should expect to be despised, then what is the parallel that makes ministers despised by those to whom they minister? He probably did not intend to take it that far. But on what basis did he take it as far as he did?

I would surely expect that AK should not expect much of a following since he seems to think that his message should be a thorn in the sides of everyone. Or is it merely a thorn in the sides of those outside of his fellowship to whom he speaks as a prophet? There is something almost Lee-like in this position.

In Art's messages "Against False Prophets" or "Seek not honor from Men", he was warning against ministers who may speak falsely or ones seeking honor. Ministers should lead us in our pursuit of the Lord through our Christian walk. We see this in 1 Corinthians 3:6 where Paul wrote, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth." Paul is acknowleging his function and that of his peer; Apollos. In exercising their spiritual gift as ministers, these brothers had a role without being overesteemed as the one planting or as the one watering. When a minister is seeking honor, they want to be overesteemed.

Ministers are usually despised when they speak a word contrary to fleshly pride. If there's an hour when you can listen to "Seek not honor from men", please discern how Art's message applies to the recovery.
I'd have to ask those who knew Art if he was a thorn. I suspect Art was a thorn to those who did not know the cross well, by those who could not recieve adjusting or admonishing.

Terry