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Old 09-25-2020, 12:00 PM   #1
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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I'll speak for zeek : not until you tell us who the disciple whom Jesus loved was ... the one that's said laid on his bosom. And prove it beyond a shadow of doubt.
Yeah.......the Greek word for bosom in that verse (John 13:23) is the same word used in John 1:18 where it says that the Son of God is in the bosom of the Father. Unless you sincerely are also trying to imply some kind of homosexual relationship between God the Father and His own Son, seriously, for your own sake, just stop.

Is anyone going to deal in the realm of logic and with the substance of the previous posts or is this thread just for making up sexually scandalous and baseless insinuations about the only One who can save your soul?
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:52 PM   #2
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Yeah.......the Greek word for bosom in that verse (John 13:23) is the same word used in John 1:18 where it says that the Son of God is in the bosom of the Father. Unless you sincerely are also trying to imply some kind of homosexual relationship between God the Father and His own Son, seriously, for your own sake, just stop.

Is anyone going to deal in the realm of logic and with the substance of the previous posts or is this thread just for making up sexually scandalous and baseless insinuations about the only One who can save your soul?
Now now bro Trapped. Calm down. I think brother zeek's point about Jesus possibly being homosexual is that the NT has left us with only speculations about his sexuality.

Same with the word bosom. Angels carried the beggar into Abraham's bosom, Lazarus was "in" his bosom, and the same Greek word was used for a "creek" in Acts 27.

All the speculation about those days 2000 yrs ago is taken care of by tradition, and christian hearts has embraced it. So John the evangelist is said to be the one that lay on Jesus' bosom, proof not needed.

And Humperdinck is acting all smart and everything, so I challenged him to answer who it was, to test his standing on tradition ... and his emotional attachment to all this.

You keep wanting logic, but most are objecting due to emotion, not logic. Logic can't answer speculations about 2000 yrs ago, if the records don't.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:03 PM   #3
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Now now bro Trapped. Calm down. I think brother zeek's point about Jesus possibly being homosexual is that the NT has left us with only speculations about his sexuality.

Same with the word bosom. Angels carried the beggar into Abraham's bosom, Lazarus was "in" his bosom, and the same Greek word was used for a "creek" in Acts 27.

All the speculation about those days 2000 yrs ago is taken care of by tradition, and christian hearts has embraced it. So John the evangelist is said to be the one that lay on Jesus' bosom, proof not needed.

And Humperdinck is acting all smart and everything, so I challenged him to answer who it was, to test his standing on tradition ... and his emotional attachment to all this.

You keep wanting logic, but most are objecting due to emotion, not logic. Logic can't answer speculations about 2000 yrs ago, if the records don't.
I'm already calm. Do you think you are riling people up by posting totally ludicrous statements that are still handled seriously?

I really don't think you all read the "other side's" posts on these threads. The NT doesn't leave us with only speculations, there is plenty to reasonably infer, as I've detailed out. I know, some people love to claim that John the beloved disciple was literally in Jesus's underwear, as the Vice article posted earlier (did you read it?) said, but do you really think angels carried a beggar into Abraham's underwear? This is why I'm asking for just a semblance of logic and reason. Because if we don't have that as a basis, then there is no way to have a discussion. And that's what this forum is about, and that's what the OP said she wanted in her OP - "a civilized discussion". I've kept my posts civil as well as discussion-oriented to the point of seriously engaging topics that many would have walked away from the second they were even posed. Are you going to hold to that parameter?

We've already got some people on one side of the issue claiming they are "hated" while others on that same side are the ones to tell people on the other side "good riddance" they are gone. Where's the civility?

Here's another semblance of reason: the rest of the apostles were Jews giving up their lives for this guy. Do you really think they were all sitting there at the last supper chilling out with no issues as John got in Jesus's underwear....and still came away believing in faith that the sinless Lamb of God was who He said He was?

The objections are not even emotional. They are out in left field and crumble under a little basic inspection. Again, if logic and reason are out the window, then the entire basis of this thread is also out the window. It's up to you.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:36 PM   #4
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I'm already calm. Do you think you are riling people up by posting totally ludicrous statements that are still handled seriously?

I really don't think you all read the "other side's" posts on these threads. The NT doesn't leave us with only speculations, there is plenty to reasonably infer, as I've detailed out. I know, some people love to claim that John the beloved disciple was literally in Jesus's underwear, as the Vice article posted earlier (did you read it?) said, but do you really think angels carried a beggar into Abraham's underwear? This is why I'm asking for just a semblance of logic and reason. Because if we don't have that as a basis, then there is no way to have a discussion. And that's what this forum is about, and that's what the OP said she wanted in her OP - "a civilized discussion". I've kept my posts civil as well as discussion-oriented to the point of seriously engaging topics that many would have walked away from the second they were even posed. Are you going to hold to that parameter?

We've already got some people on one side of the issue claiming they are "hated" while others on that same side are the ones to tell people on the other side "good riddance" they are gone. Where the civility?

Here's another semblance of reason: the rest of the apostles were Jews giving up their lives for this guy. Do you really think they were all sitting there at the last supper chilling out with no issues as John got in Jesus's underwear....and still came away believing in faith that the sinless Lamb of God was who He said He was?

The objections are not even emotional. They are out in left field and crumble under a little basic inspection. Again, if logic and reason are out the window, then the entire basis of this thread is also out the window. It's up to you.
Brother Trapped, this post has me flooring in the floor. Thanks for that. These days while in isolation I could use a good laugh.

Okay, there exists lots of speculation about Jesus' sexuality, going back to the 16th c. And there's lots flying around out here.

Did homosexuality even exist 2000 yrs ago? Was anybody homosexual? Of course, but it doesn't make sense that Jesus and/or Paul were gay. It doesn't come up in the record left to us.

And it certainly doesn't enter the minds of 99.9999% of Christians. Their minds are filled with traditional imaginations of Jesus and Paul, and their hearts are deeply attached to them.

And I have to admit that, if I went around in this Bible belt saying Jesus or Paul were gay, I doubt I'd be long on this earth. That's how deeply and strongly Christians feel toward common and/or traditional imaginations of Jesus and Paul. And I'm not on any of the social media sites, like Facebook, but if I were, and I suggested that either or both of them were gay, I'd likely get plenty of death threats, from both rational and irrational Christians alike.

Brother zeek is a master at weaving words, and put the question up about Jesus' sexuality to make a point that our records are skimpy on details, even about Jesus' sexuality. Did they even wear underwear back then, as we know 'em today? Maybe, and prolly, at least loincloths. But according to our NT records we don't know, do we?

We get more such details from Egyptian records, and from Roman records, during the days of Jesus.

So let's drop speculations that can't be supported by the records we have so far today.

Let's rather get back to the question of how gays should be treated today, by both Christians and the community at large. After all, homosexuality isn't contagious, either biologically or socially. We don't control it any more than we can control the genitalia we're born with.

I've been told for much of my life that homosexuality is a choice. That's what Bible believers have told me. But it's not. They just want it that way so that they and God can condemn homosexuals to everlasting torment in hell fire.

But Jesus didn't say, "Love your neighbors, unless they are gay." Not according to the record we have. No need for speculations there. We're to love them.

Thanks for speaking for logic. Jesus made it logical to love the gays, and people -- neighbors -- of all variations thereof. Let's stick with Jesus, and the two great commandments ... and not the law from long before Jesus.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:15 PM   #5
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Brother Trapped, this post has me flooring in the floor. ... Let's stick with Jesus, and the two great commandments ... and not the law from long before Jesus.
Thanks for your fantastic post. Your laughing about my post also gave me a good laugh I sorely needed myself. I was taking the topic so seriously I didn't stop to think about what comical scenarios were being described (I mean poor guy, Lazarus is a beggar covered in sores licked by dogs [as the verses say] and he dies and ends up in someone's underwear instead......hardly the sweet release of death.....)

I agree with your post too. Jesus absolutely made it logical to love gay people. And God so loved the world, which last time I checked, includes everyone. Although I don't know specific concrete reasons why any given person has same-sex attractions, I have heard enough stories of people who say they desperately prayed not to feel that way, and that they have suffered for years where they would do anything to be rid of those attractions that I believe them when they say it's not a choice. That's why I'm on this thread, because I recognize the agony inside a person struggling with something they didn't seem to ask for, and on a basic level I wanted to understand it better in hopes my understanding could some day help someone dealing with it themselves. Or at least I might be the first Christian they encounter in their life who sits and listens and sees them because I had previously taken the time to discuss and comprehend the serious thing they are crushed by, rather than maybe all the other Christians before them who added to their pain.
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:03 PM   #6
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Thanks for your fantastic post. Your laughing about my post also gave me a good laugh I sorely needed myself. I was taking the topic so seriously I didn't stop to think about what comical scenarios were being described (I mean poor guy, Lazarus is a beggar covered in sores licked by dogs [as the verses say] and he dies and ends up in someone's underwear instead......hardly the sweet release of death.....)

I agree with your post too. Jesus absolutely made it logical to love gay people. And God so loved the world, which last time I checked, includes everyone. Although I don't know specific concrete reasons why any given person has same-sex attractions, I have heard enough stories of people who say they desperately prayed not to feel that way, and that they have suffered for years where they would do anything to be rid of those attractions that I believe them when they say it's not a choice. That's why I'm on this thread, because I recognize the agony inside a person struggling with something they didn't seem to ask for, and on a basic level I wanted to understand it better in hopes my understanding could some day help someone dealing with it themselves. Or at least I might be the first Christian they encounter in their life who sits and listens and sees them because I had previously taken the time to discuss and comprehend the serious thing they are crushed by, rather than maybe all the other Christians before them who added to their pain.
And your fantastic post too. Ya got me laughing again Trapped.

I'll tell this story, in a nutshell. In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale Fl a brother and I would meet once a week to study Jessie Penn-Lewis, and her teachings on the cross. That was the times when my questions about Lee were boiling up to the surface.

Eventually I left, or was booted - excommunicated -- from the church. Six months or so afterwards, that brother I was meeting with, in a separate room from wife and kids, came out that he was gay ; telling everyone, including his wife and three kids, his parents, and many in the LC, that he was gay. I was shocked.

But I already loved the brother so we stayed friends. I spent a good decade picking his brain as to what made him gay. It's wasn't a choice. I didn't know it at the time but he was reading about the cross in hopes that it would crucify his gayness away ... and that he was at that time literally beating his head against a cement wall, trying to get it out. He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them. So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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And your fantastic post too. Ya got me laughing again Trapped.

I'll tell this story, in a nutshell. In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale Fl a brother and I would meet once a week to study Jessie Penn-Lewis, and her teachings on the cross. That was the times when my questions about Lee were boiling up to the surface.

Eventually I left, or was booted - excommunicated -- from the church. Six months or so afterwards, that brother I was meeting with, in a separate room from wife and kids, came out that he was gay ; telling everyone, including his wife and three kids, his parents, and many in the LC, that he was gay. I was shocked.

But I already loved the brother so we stayed friends. I spent a good decade picking his brain as to what made him gay. It's wasn't a choice. I didn't know it at the time but he was reading about the cross in hopes that it would crucify his gayness away ... and that he was at that time literally beating his head against a cement wall, trying to get it out. He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them. So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.
Well I'm glad this sorta got back on track, so let me jump in here again and say something . . . regarding being a choice or not being a choice - I don't think anyone knows for sure how this thing works!

The things that might be listed which causes homosexuality could include:

> Choice
> Genes and/or hormones
> Some other predisposition
> Deceiving spirits
> God's plan
> Some combination of above

Are there other potential causes that could be listed?
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Old 09-27-2020, 11:28 AM   #8
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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He told me that when he came out he finally felt free ; free to be who he really was ... finally.

Clearly it wasn't a choice for him.

But we know why it's got to be a choice. Because in the Bible God judges it ; and God can't judge someone for how He makes them.

So for those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant inspired word of God, God condemns homosexuality, so it's got to be a choice. They're wrong, it's not.
The same can be said of all human "propensities" which are contrary to God's laws. Whether a liar, a thief, an arsonist, a murderer, a sorcerer, an idolator, an alcoholic, a reviler, a prostitute, a drug addict, a womanizer, an adulterer, etc -- all such ones can claim that their own personal innate "propensities" were not their choice, but they were "born that way." They were merely "surviving" in a nasty world. They were only living the way God had made them.

And coming out of their many "conscience closets" made them all feel so free. It's way too hard to resist the way we are made, eh? And if God made them all the way they were, how can He ever judge any of them?

Either awareness is wrong or the Bible is wrong, God included. Can't be both. I sure hope awareness is right because I would hate to be judged for any of my "propensities." But if awareness is wrong, a whole lot of people are in for the shock of their lives.
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